Coauthor: Tony Nugent, Ph.D.
This decade has been called, “The Mormon Moment,” the time that America’s largest home-grown religion finally comes into its own as a part of the Christian tapestry. Even some LDS quirks seem to be turning into positives. Shifting sexual mores have made Mormon polygamy and sacred undergarments a matter more of slightly kinky fascination rather Puritan disgust. And after expressing big disapproval over Big Love, Church leaders shifted strategies and met the hit musical, the “The Book of Mormon,” with bemused acceptance, praising it “for really nailing the Mormon sweetness, niceness, and sense of do-gooderness,” and filling theater programs with their own advertisements.
In an effort to reassure Evangelical voters, presidential candidate Mitt Romney inserted the phrase “the same god” into his domestic policy debate against Barack Obama, and Billy Graham’s website showed solidarity by removing Mormonism from a list of “cults.” Since then, Mormon missionaries have been quoted as saying, “Even Billy Graham says we are Christians.” Over the course of 2012, the LDS Church promoted “I’m a Mormon,” a multi-million dollar marketing campaign seeking to portray Mormonism as mainstream. And on December 10, 2013, the Mormon church renounced and denounced a part of its racist past.
But do Mormons and Evangelicals worship the same god? How mainstream are their beliefs?
Dr. Tony Nugent, retired professor of religious studies, has compiled a list of twelve teachings that Mormons tend to downplay. Dr. Nugent calls each of these beliefs “questionable.” A quick read suggest they also are far from mainstream.
1. The American Continent Was Originally Settled by Ancient Near Easterners.
The story of the Book of Mormon (BoM) is that the American continent was originally settled by people from the ancient Near East who came across the ocean in boats between 5000 and 2500 years ago. This includes four groups: the Jaredites, who came from Mesopotamia after the fall of the Tower of Babel (3rd Millennium BC), and three groups of Israelites who came in the 6th Century B.C.—Lehites from the tribe of Manasseh, Ishmaelites from the tribe of Ephraim, and Mulekites from the tribe of Judah. Contrary to this view, archaeological, historical, and genetic evidence indicates that the American continent was originally settled by Mongoloid people who came over the Bering land bridge during the last Ice Age and who are the ancestors of today’s Native American people.
2. Native Americans Are Descendants of Ancient Israelites.
Much of the BoM story focuses on two groups of Israelites in the New World, the Nephites and the Lamanites, descended from two of the sons of Lehi of the tribe of Manasseh. These groups fought continually, but when Christ came from heaven after his ascension to visit them in AD 34, they all believed in him and stopped fighting. However, in the 3rd and 4th Centuries AD, when the Lamanites stopped believing in Christ, these peaceful relations ended. Their renewed hostilities culminated in a great religious war in AD 385 at the hill Cumorah in upstate New York, in which the Lamanites were victorious and 230,000 Nephites were killed. The few surviving Nephites soon died, and the surviving Lamanites became the “American Indians.”
Among the problems with this scenario are that there is no evidence that any Native American groups are Semitic, but rather that they are Mongoloid; there are no surviving traces in their cultures of ancient Israelite customs, language, or religion; and there are no traces of their supposedly former Christian practices and beliefs.
Then from where would Joseph Smith have gotten this story? The mistaken idea that the American Indians descend from the lost tribes of Israel was, in fact, a very popular idea in the United States in the early 19th Century. The closest parallel to Joseph Smith’s version of the idea is found in Ethan Smith’s View of the Hebrews, published in 1823, just four years before Joseph started working on the BoM. The many specific parallels between these two works have often been noted. How might Smith have known about this work? From Oliver Cowdery, one of Smith’s scribes in the translation of the BoM and whose family attended the church in Vermont where Ethan Smith was pastor at the time he was writing his book. In her 1945 work, No Man Knows My History, Fawn Brodie writes, “Thus where the View of the Hebrews was just bad scholarship, the BoM was highly original and imaginative fiction.” (Brodie, p. 48)
3. Dark Skin is a Sign of God’s Curse, White Skin a Sign of God’s Blessing.
In the BoM dark skin is a sign of God’s curse, while white skin is a sign of his blessing. When the Lamanites displease God, “because of their iniquity….the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them” (2 Nephi 5:21). Later, when the Lamanites become Christians, “their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites” (3 Nephi 2:15). Other racist passages in the scripture have simply been changed by Mormon authorities—e.g., 2 Nephi 30:6, which originally referred to conversion to Christianity bringing about a “white and delightsome people,” now reads, as of 1981, “a pure and delightsome people.” As for black people, Joseph Smith taught that they are cursed as “sons of Cain.” Brigham Young, the successor of Joseph Smith, stated: “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10). Since blacks were a stigmatized race in Mormonism, black men were denied ordination to the priesthood in the LDS Church. While the LDS Church, under pressure, finally granted black men the priesthood in 1978, the racism in their Scriptures remains as offensive as ever. Note: The doctrine that black skin is a punishment was renounced by the Church hierarchy in December 2013.
4. The BoM is Based on a Historically Accurate and Believable Ancient Work.
Mormon authorities teach that the BoM is a translation from ancient records written in a “Reformed Egyptian” script on metal plates between the years 2500 BC and AD 421. Among the many reasons for doubting this claim are the following:
- Many different animals, plants, & manufactured goods are reported in the BoM story as being present in the New World during this time period. There is apparently no credible evidence that any of the following were present in the New World during this time period: cows, horses, oxen, asses, goats, sheep, pigs, honeybees, elephants, barley, wheat, silk, iron & brass metallurgy, steel, metal coins, swords, chariots, wheels, compasses, and metal plates inscribed with writing.
- Many passages in the BoM repeat Old and New Testament biblical passages word-for-word. But how would Nephi, for instance, who lived in the 6th Century BC, know passages in Old Testament books such as Malachi, written after his time, and in the New Testament, written 600-700 years later?
- Analogously, why would distinctively Christian practices and beliefs, including the establishment of a “Church of Christ,” the practice of baptism, and belief that those not baptized are damned to be tortured in hell for eternity, be found in ancient records said to have been written before the beginning of the Christian Era?
- In the second verse of the BoM Nephi says, “Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.”(1 Nephi 1:2). Later in the work Moroni says that his record is “in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian” (Mormon 9:32). These are problematic statements. First of all, the term “Jew” refers to the people of the tribe of Judah and those from the other tribes who joined with them, starting with the period of the Babylonian exile (which is after Lehi’s family has left Jerusalem). In addition, there is no biblical or other evidence that Israelites of the 6th Century BC spoke Egyptian or wrote using any of the forms of Egyptian hieroglyphics.
5. Joseph Smith Translated the Book of Mormon from Gold Plates.
The Mormon story is that the Nephite military commander and prophet Moroni buried a history of his people, written on “gold plates,” in the hill Cumorah in AD 421. 1400 years later, on the night of September 22-23, 1823, Moroni, now having become an angel, visits 17-year-old Joseph Smith in his bedroom and tells him where the plates are buried. It happens to be just 3 miles south of where Smith lives. He goes there and sees the plates in a stone box, but as soon as he tries to take them the angel forbids him. He returns to the same spot on the same night of the year for the next two years, without success. Then, by looking into his seer-stone or “peep stone,” a chocolate-colored, egg-shaped stone which he had found when digging a well in 1822 and used to find lost and buried treasure, Smith learns that to be successful he must marry Emma Hale and take her with him to Cumorah. So on Sept. 22, 1827, he and Emma conduct a “black magic” ritual: at midnight, dressed entirely in black, they drive a black carriage drawn by a black horse to the hill. Joseph unearths the box and takes the plates, along with some magical eyeglasses made out of stones (called “interpreters” and “the Urim and Thummim”) with which to decipher the “reformed Egyptian” language in which the texts on the plates are written. According to Smith, the plates were “six inches wide and eight inches long and not quite as thick as common tin;” they were “filled with engravings in Egyptian characters and bound together in a volume, as the leaves of a book with three rings running through the whole;” and the stack of metal pages stood about six inches high.
Smith’s main translation process involved putting the interpreters (or his “peep-stone”) in a hat, putting his face in the hat (he didn’t need to view the plates themselves), and dictating to a scribe. After 116-initial pages of translation were lost by Smith’s scribe Martin Harris, Moroni supposedly took away the interpreters, and Smith was forced to rely on his old and trusty peep-stone. Smith’s translation was completed at the end of June 1829, and the BoM was first published by E.B. Grandin in Palmyra, NY, in March 1830. Where can we see these marvelous gold plates? We can’t, because Smith gave them back to Moroni.
6. There Are Testimonies to the “Gold Plates” from 11 Credible Witnesses.
But, say Mormon texts, there were 11 “witnesses” to the gold plates! These witness statements are printed at the beginning of each copy of the BoM. Three witnesses declare that an angel of God showed them the engravings upon the plates, while the eight others claim that that Joseph Smith showed them the plates with their engravings, which they also handled. Regarding the first three witnesses, Martin Harris said he had “never claimed to have seen the plates with his natural eyes,” but only with “spiritual eyes.” Oliver Cowdery was a relative of Smith’s, served as his scribe in translating the BoM, and was accustomed to having otherworldly visions. He told Smith that he had seen the gold plates in a “vision” even before the two of them had met. The third, David Whitmer, later said that the angel he saw “had no appearance or shape,” that he merely had the “impression” of an angel.
A few years after the BoM was published these three witnesses were excommunicated and harshly denounced and insulted by Smith. He described Whitmer as “an ass to bray out cursings instead of blessings.” He denounced Cowdery as “too mean to mention” and the leader of a gang of “scoundrels of the deepest degree.” He said Martin Harris was “so far beneath contempt that to notice him would be too great a sacrifice for a gentleman to make.”
Regarding the other eight witnesses, one of them was Joseph Smith’s father, two of them were his brothers, and the other five were close relations of David Whitmer. All the Whitmer family witnesses were later excommunicated, although David eventually rejoined the church.
7. Ancient Prophecies in Mormon Scriptures Foretell the Coming of Joseph Smith.
Joseph Smith, Jr. couldn’t resist the temptation of injecting a self-serving prophecy of himself into the BoM. In the section of the book supposedly written in about 600 BC an Israelite by the name of Nephi reports that the biblical patriarch Joseph uttered this prophecy: “A seer shall the Lord my God raise up,” and “his name shall be called after me; and it shall be after the name of his father” (2 Nephi 3:6,15). Here we have a prophecy like a riddle, the answer to which is, of course, Joseph Smith, Jr. and Sr. Not satisfied to have this prophecy of himself and his father only in the BoM, Smith goes further by adding nearly-identical verses to the text of the Bible. In the last chapter of Genesis in Smith’s Inspired Version of The Holy Scriptures, the Lord says to Joseph just before he dies in Egypt: “That seer will I bless…..and his name shall be called Joseph; and it shall be after the name of his father; and he shall be like unto you.” This and the many other “prophecies” in Mormon scripture are cases of what is known in biblical scholarship as a vaticinium ex eventu, a “prophecy after the fact.” And it is one where the ulterior motive of the perpetrator of the hoax could not be more evident.
8. Joseph Smith Restored What Catholics Removed from the Bible.
What is the basis for this and the many other Mormon additions to the Bible? As explained in 1 Nephi, these are needed because the “Great and Abominable Church, which is most abominable above all other churches,” traditionally understood in Mormonism as the Roman Catholic Church, has “taken away” from the Bible “many plain and precious things.” But in fact this couldn’t have been the work of the Catholics, because there’s no sign of these omissions in the Hebrew Bible, written several hundred years before there were any Christians or churches! It must have been the nefarious Jews who did it, which would explain why so many of the passages Joseph Smith identifies as having been removed from the Bible and which he restores are its Old Testament (< Hebrew Bible) references to Jesus Christ. Take parts of the 6th chapter of Genesis in the Inspired Version: God says to Adam, “Turn unto me….and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ” (Genesis 6:53). And then “Adam cried unto the Lord, and was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water; and thus he was baptized” (Genesis 6:67).
9. The LDS Church’s Theological Doctrines Are Not Significantly Different from Those of Mainstream Christian Denominations.
In the last few decades LDS authorities have made a major effort to downplay its distinctive teachings (and practices) in order to present as a “mainstream” Christian denomination. These distinctive doctrines include the following: (The last two were taught by Joseph Smith but are not official doctrines of the LDS church.)
- God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate divine beings (Mormonism is anti-Trinitarian).
- In his pre-mortal existence Jesus Christ, the literal Son of God the Father, was the LORD (= Jehovah/Yahweh) of the Old Testament
- Humans have pre-mortal existences as spirit-children of God the Father and a Heavenly Mother.
- Humans can become angels, and angels can become humans, e. g., Adam used to be St. Michael (refer to Temple Endowment ceremony), Noah used to be St. Gabriel, and the Nephite man Moroni became the angel Moroni.
- Matter has always existed, so the Creation was not ex nihilo.
- There is no “hell” in the traditional Christian sense but rather a spirit prison where wicked spirits are cleansed in preparation for their resurrection.
- A deceased person who was never baptized can get to the Celestial Kingdom as a result of a proxy baptism in a Mormon temple.
- The highest level of the Celestial Kingdom is reserved for couples who have been “sealed” in a Mormon temple for a life of “eternal marriage.”
- God the Father used to be a human living on the earth (Joseph Smith, “King Follett Discourse,” 1844)
- Humans can become Gods (be exalted) in the future and dwell in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. (Joseph Smith, “King Follett Discourse,” 1844)
1o. “If ye abide not that covenant [plurality of wives] then are ye damned.”
Since the 19th Century the LDS church has denied that polygamy is a part of its core doctrines, and many Mormons deny that Joseph Smith was a polygamist. However, the doctrine of “plural marriage,” referring in this case to a man having more than one wife (polygyny), was revealed to Joseph Smith at Nauvoo, IL, on July 12, 1843, and was enshrined in 1876 as Section 132 of Doctrine and Covenants (D&C), one of the LDS Church’s scriptures. At the same time Section 101 in the early edition of the D&C, specifying the rule of monogamy, was removed. In this new “revelation,” God declares plurality of wives as essential for attainment of godhood (article 20), that those who reject it are damned (article 4), and that if Emma Smith rejects Joseph’s other marriages he will destroy her (article 54). This revelation was kept secret from the general church membership until Brigham Young made it known in 1852.
The principle of plural marriage in Mormonism has its roots in 1832, when Joseph Smith told his innermost circle that “he had inquired of the Lord concerning the principle of plurality of wives, and he received for an answer…that it is a true principle, but the time had not yet come for it to be practiced.” At about that time, when Joseph and Emma had become boarders at the home of John and Elsa Johnson in Hiram, Ohio, people in the neighborhood suspected that Joseph was having a sexual relationship with their daughter, 15-year old Marinda Nancy Johnson. According to a statement by Marinda’s brother Luke Johnson, on March 24, 1832 “a mob of forty or fifty…entered his room in the middle of the night….he was then seized by as many as could get hold of him, and taken about forty rods from the house…they tore off the few night clothes that he had on, for the purpose of emasculating him, and had Dr. Dennison there to perform the operation; but he refused to operate. The mob…poured tar over him, and then stuck feathers in it and left him.” Early the following year 16-year-old Fanny Alger moved into the Smith house as a domestic servant, and in February or March Joseph took her as his plural wife. He kept this secret from Emma, but in 1835 she caught them in flagrante delicto and ejected Fanny from the house. This incident led to a severe rift between Smith and his collaborator Oliver Cowdery, who referred to it as “a dirty, nasty, filthy affair.”
These conflicts apparently did little to alter Smith’s course of action. “Joseph continued to take plural wives throughout the 1830’s in Ohio and Missouri, and he married with even greater frequency in Nauvoo in the early 1840’s.” In his lifetime Smith “married at least thirty-three women, and probably as many as forty-eight.” (Krakauer, Under the Banner of Heaven, pp. 5, 119-121)
Mormons who are taught that Joseph was a “devoted husband” (see the LDS Church’s website) should be reminded that Emma Smith never accepted the principle or the practice of plural marriage. After Joseph’s death she did not join the Mormons moving west to Utah, led by the polygamist Brigham Young. Instead she stayed behind and joined the anti-polygamist Reorganized LDS Church (known today as the Community of Christ). While the practice of polygamy has been forbidden in the LDS Church since the “1890 Manifesto,” it is still enshrined in the revealed Scriptures as necessary for obtaining “godhood.”
11. Joseph Smith Translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian Papyri.
In July of 1835 a man by the name of Michael Chandler brought some Egyptian mummies and papyri which had been excavated near the ancient city of Thebes to Kirtland, OH, and sold them to Joseph Smith. Although Smith had no knowledge of the ancient Egyptian language or writing, he nevertheless “translated” some of these papyri, and in 1842 published the results along with three “facsimiles” (with interpretations) as the Book of Abraham. In 1880, thirty-six years after Smith’s death, this work was incorporated as Part 2 of the LDS Church’s scripture known as The Pearl of Great Price. In Smith’s “translation” the patriarch Abraham tells a story of traveling from Chaldea to Egypt, where a priest lays him on an altar to sacrifice him, but he is miraculously saved by an angel of God; he gives a discourse about the universe, time, and stars, including the star/planet Kolob, which is closest to the throne of God; and he provides a polytheistic paraphrase of the first two chapters of Genesis which substitutes the word “Gods” for the biblical “God” and “Lord God.”
Many prominent 19th and 20th Century Egyptologists have examined the Joseph Smith papyri, including the one from the Egyptian “Book of Breathings” which is thought to be the specific papyrus which Smith translated as the main text of the Book of Abraham. All the papyri are inscribed with hieratic funerary texts, and the “Book of Breathings” is dated to the 1st Century BC or AD, 2000 years after Abraham supposedly lived. It is the unanimous opinion of the many Egyptologists who have examined the papyri that the text of Smith’s Book of Abraham, together with his related interpretations of the papyrus “facsimiles,” bear no resemblance whatsoever to the papyri texts. The Book of Abraham is, in the words of these renowned Egyptologists, an “impudent fraud” (A. H. Sayce, Oxford Univ.), “absurd” (W. M. Flinders Petrie, London Univ.), a work by an “absolutely ignorant” person (James H. Breasted, Univ. of Chicago), a work whose “explanations [of the facsimiles] are completely wrong” (Richard A. Parker, Brown Univ.), a “pure fabrication” (Arthur C. Mace, Metropolitan Museum of Art), a “work of pure imagination” (S. A. B. Mercer, Western Theological Seminary).
12. Joseph Smith Was a Highly Ethical, Honest, Truth-Seeking, Law-Abiding Person.
Although Joseph Smith was clearly very charismatic, there is considerable evidence that the official Mormon view of his pure moral character is a fiction. When Smith became famous as the “Mormon Prophet,” people who knew him from his early years were aghast, and they express their feelings in the following signed affidavits:
Mrs. S. F. Anderick: “Jo was pompous, pretentious…claimed he could tell where lost or hidden things and treasures were buried. He deceived many farmers.”
Isaac Butts: “I have frequently seen Jo drunk. He had a forked witch-hazel rod, later a peep-stone with which he claimed he could locate buried money or hidden things.”
W. R. Hine: “I heard a man say who was a neighbor to the Mormon Smith family, that they were thieves, indolent, the lowest, meanest family he ever saw or heard of.”
Joseph Rogers: “Farmers said he as a terror to the neighborhood and that he would either have to go to State prison, be hung, or leave the county, or he would be killed. Jo contrived in every way to obtain money without work. The farmers claimed that not a week passed without Jo stole something. I knew at least one hundred farmers in the towns of Phelps, Manchester, and Palmyra, N.Y., who would make out that Jo Smith the Mormon prophet was a a liar, intemperate and a base imposter…He could read the character of men readily and could tell who he could dupe.”
Mrs. Sylvia Walker: “They [the Smith family] were the lowest family I ever knew. They worked very little and had the reputation of stealing everything they could lay their hands on….When Jo told his neighbors about finding gold plates no one believed him nor paid any attention to it, he had humbugged them so much.”
On August 1, 1831, Joseph Smith received a revelation which became Section 58 of Doctrine and Covenants. Verse 21 of that section states: “Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land” (D&C 58:21). This revelation is at odds with his own life history. Beginning at least as early as 1826, when he was 25 years old, until his death, Smith was continuously in trouble with legal authorities. In his lifetime Smith had to defend himself in forty-eight criminal cases and had a total of over 200 suits brought against him. His troubles with the law caused the parents of his first wife, Emma Hale, to disown their daughter. Many of Smith’s trials are attributed by Mormons to religious persecution. However, his legal troubles predate his religious proclamations. Smith’s first known trial, on March 20, 1826, in East Bainbridge, NY, he was arrested, jailed, charged, and convicted of being “a disorderly person and an imposter” and “falsely pretending to discover lost goods.”
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The questionable beliefs and teachings outlined above, as well as others not discussed, have created problems for Mormons, their leaders, and the LDS Church from the religion’s beginnings until today. The Church does not allow members to openly and independently investigate or question its core beliefs or historical claims, or to challenge its leadership or core values. It does not allow hard-to-swallow doctrines to be discussed with potential converts before they have digested simpler ones (called “milk before meat”), nor for these doctrines to be publicly disseminated. When members do these things, and do not leave the Church voluntarily, they are “disfellowshipped” or excommunicated. Witness the famous modern-day 1993 case of the “September Six.”
“Lying for the Lord” is the term some ex-Mormons use for the Mormon practice of not telling the whole truth or dissimulating when necessary to further the image and interests of the Church. In the 19th Century, when the clash between Mormons and mainstream Christians was more overt, deception was more overt as well. Examples often cited are the denials by LDS leaders and members when they were charged with condoning and practicing polygamy (“plural marriage”). Since polygamy became illegal throughout the United States in the mid-19thCentury, church leaders such as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and Heber Kimball, as well as members who practiced polygamy were breaking the law, so that secrecy and denial were considered necessary to protect the church. At times deception assumed the status of a religious duty. This stance led to perjury by LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith and others during the Reed Smoot Congressional Hearings of 1904-7.
The historical necessity of self-protective deception creates a conundrum in that the Mormon religion strongly values honesty both in private life and in its public image. Yet the issue of deception in Mormonism runs deeper than a matter of “situational ethics.” Consider the following statements by Mormon leaders:
Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth president of the LDS Church (1970-72): “If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false.” (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188).
Orson Pratt, elder and member of the original Quorum of the LDS Church: “The Book of Mormon…must be either true or false. If true, it is one of the most important messages ever sent from God to man…If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions” (Introduction, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, 1850).
Should Mormonism be founded in an elaborate hoax, as much evidence suggests, then deception is not just an occasional practice, but the foundation structure upon which the entire edifice of the Mormon religion has been erected. Mormons of good faith are then inescapably caught between the demands of doctrine and their core moral values of honesty and integrity.
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More about Mormonism:
Mormon Church: Dark Skin a Sign of God’s Curse No Longer
Does Mitt Romney Think He’s a Jew?
Are Mormon Underwear Magic Between the Sheets?
Valerie Tarico is a psychologist and freelance writer, and the author of Trusting Doubt: A Former Evangelical Looks at Old Beliefs in a New Light. Dr. Tony Nugent is a symbologist and retired professor of religious studies.
AwayPoint 
HEADLINE! Baptist goes MORMON!
I “Grazed by the LDS faith when I was a teenager, mom went back to the church from her hippy ways. Yeah, I’m that old, I then married a young Baptist Calvinist for 20 yrs. When she lost her mind and left me with 3 kids to raise I went back to the church, but with a microscope of study. I am VERY THANKFUL FOR MY BAPTIST years it was EXTREMELY rigorous in a study. I continue to study the LDS beliefs and all ancient religious history. I do not have time to go through a response to the above article, I will tell you that it’s at best and I am being charitable here at best a low flying look above the trees. As you would expect in such an endeavor the ability to study field mice on the ground would be shall we say somewhat limited at best.
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It’s all very hilarious if it weren’t so sad – personally I don’t have time for ANY of the Jewish cults, including Christianity and all it’s little offshoots. People are so credulous, wanting to shift responsibility to an imaginary father figure, and wanting to be forgiven by that same figure. Weird. Take your own responsibility, and forgive yourself – you are your best critic if you allow it. Don’t blame imaginary friends, and don’t rely on them either. Rely on yourself.
Certainly don’t rely on a well known con-artist who purports to have had revelations from God. Pity his nuttiness, and move along.
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I think this is all a very big waste of time
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Wow you people are pretty sad to be using partial truths and twisting things and just straight up fake facts as well to turn others away from the Gospel…I think it tells the rest of us something about what’s going in your lives that you came here to disgrace something you don’t even understand just because you’ve never tried to gain a testimony of Jesus Christ…I’m sorry that living a worthy life is too much for most of you, but you should just recognize that that’s a personal problem instead of thinking “oooooh look I’ve found this random piece of church history that I can twist and change to make sound it bad…now I feel justified in claiming to be ‘atheist’ just so I don’t have to try to restrain myself when necessary or live a decent life”
Well keep that “justification” to yourself next time, and don’t pick on us, we’ll try and teach you again when you’re in spiritual prison
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Not random. Joseph Smith is the main and original prophet from which the Mormon church sprang. How would you like to find out your parents are not your natural parents? That you and your siblings were all kidnapped from other families so they could collect Welfare, keep you starved and in rags while your parents secret illegal income is from a Swingers group sex club they run out of a warehouse?
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They are Christ like…
Jesus was charged and killed by the Roman government for sedition, sorcery, insurrection, idolatry and treason. ..
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Yes. He and his followers were trying to rid their nation of the Romans. Remember, the Romans were brutal. It’s like being occupied by the Committee of 300.
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Mormon theology is pagan and polytheistic and as fictionally melodramatic as Greek mythology. The ultimate destiny of every worthy Mormon elder who makes to the highest degree of Mormon heaven, exaltation, is to become Mormon heavenly father-gods, with a capital G, with their wives, who will become Mormon heavenly mother-goddesses, with a capital G, and do everything that their Mormon heavenly father, and his heavenly mother-goddess did, which includes creating an earth, and billions of spirit children to include a first-born son who will be the savior of that world just like the Mormon Jesus. For every Mormon elder there will be a savior-Jesus procreated in the perpetual cycle of Mormon godhood, which the Mormon Church now calls “deification.” Brigham Young stated in 1865 that, “there are as many Gods as there are stars, and as many saviors as there are Gods.” If you don’t believe me, here is the smoking gun proof from “Lesson 21-Man May Become like God,” from the 1984 LDS Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, “Search These Commandments” which was the last 20th Century published affirmation and veneration of Joseph Smith, Jr.’s 1844 King Follett Discourse and Mormon Prophet Lorenzo Snow’s refinement of it in the late 1890s. http://richkelsey.org/lesson21.html The most dramatic expose of Mormon real Mormon theology was the 1877 book by Edward Tullidge, “Women of Mormondom.” which was dedicated to Eliza R. Snow and blessed by the Mormon Prophet Brigham Young in 1877, just before his death. The drama of Mormon polytheistic goddess-hood is detailed dramatically and fictionally as REAL Mormon theology in the book! http://www.gutenberg.org/files/54335/54335-h/54335-h.htm
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Don’t believe everything you read. Any website (like this one) tells things in a skewed point of view. A lot of things mentioned here are either taken out of context or are completely false. Yes, certain things are true and might seem screwy, but you need a basic understanding before you can learn and understand more advanced things in the gospel. Like the Bible says, “line upon line, precept upon precept”. There are good people in every religion and bad ones too, that doesn’t mean Mormons are bad people, it means they are human. Unless you are part of the religion and really dive into it, you shouldn’t judge and assume. Do more research. Read both sides of the story and especially read the Book of Mormon with a true intent and not just to scrutinize. Then you can make your comments.
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Ah, milk before meat.
There are definitely good people in all religions, and I have known some very kind, honest, generous Mormons. There are also very kind, honest, generous people who are not religious. My own tendency, given the contents of Abrahamic religion, is to suspect that people are decent and good in spite of their religion, not because of it.
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Though I read the Book of Mormon forty times in four years, and know what the book says and does not say, it is not intellectual knowledge of why I know it is true, and is the word of God, and another testimony, like the Bible, that Jesus is the Christ. Therefore, I know this because of my personal revelation by the Holy Ghost! First, I know we have a Heavenly Father, who is literally our Father, and His Son Jesus Christ, is the Savior of the world. Also, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s true church on earth today. Additionally, the Holy Spirit has revealed to me that the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith indeed had a vision of the Father and Son in 1820 and he was given commandments to restore the Lord’s Church back upon the earth, as there was a “falling away” of truth as the Apostle Paul prophesied. Any historian knows of the facts of the Spanish (Catholic) Inquisition and the Protestant Reformation, therefore, a need to “restore.” BUT it is not only this, but the fact that when my mother and father were getting divorced when i was a teenager, that I had the experience of praying, with a faith to move mountains, for three hours, that I parted the veil, and the Lord spoke to me in a man’s voice and simply said, “Ronnie, everything will be OK.” At this moment, a feeling which puny words cannot describe came upon me, and yes, since that moment, I have never had one worrisome thought about the divorce. But this “visitation” did not stick unfortunately, it was not until years later, when I was twenty-four years of age (1984) after an accident, and read the Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball, and when I read, the book had at the top of the page the name “Ronnie” followed by a comma, and then the content. I read it in a day or two, and then the Book of Mormon in three days too, that I began to truly desire to repent. But also a few days later, the devil came to stop my progression; therefore, the Lord sent an Angel of the Lord to me, in the form of a man, standing just above me in the air and said, “Be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord,” and other commandments such as, “I would die soon if I did not repent,” and other counsel, thus, I repented of my then rebellious behavior, and returned to church the on April Easter. I know that “spiritual experiences” do not necessarily convert souls; however, I bear humble testimony that these experiences indeed happened for me, so my “faith is swallowed up in a perfect knowledge” of some eternal truths. I do not have any bitter feelings to those who have either purposely lied or ignorantly lied on this page, and leave all judgement unto the Lord God. BUT I leave all with this, “Every head shall bow, and every tongue confess, that Jesus is the Christ.” In his sacred and holy name, even Jesus Christ. Amen
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Those are indeed powerful experiences, and experiences like these are what binds believers to each religion.
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the true church. When I hear that, it frightens me. It would be the same as someone telling me that Communism is the only way to live. Hmmm. I’m sorry but I’d like to keep what I make because it’s the fruit of MY labor and I will decide who I want to help. When you say it is the true church, that is YOUR opinion and you are welcome to believe but don’t push that elitist nonsense on the rest of us. I don’t think that the ONE God who is the creator would enjoy sharing his title with self proclaimed Gods and Goddesses.
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If there really was an “all powerful” God who wanted human kind to “know” him/her, then there is one basic inescapable conclusion that any rational person would have to reach:
ALL the stories about, and “teachings” from, God should be the SAME all over the world.
And yet, every corner of the world seems to have different stories and different teachings.
Furthermore, all Judeo/Christian religions include the book of Genesis as one of those “truths”, and yet on the FIRST PAGE of the book of Genesis it says that PLANTS were created on day 3, and the SUN/MOON/STARS (“two great lights/luminaries”) were created on day 4. The notion that plants existed BEFORE the sun did is absolutely illogical.
What more needs to be said?
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Dear kimberly the thing is that it is a act the lds play on being this kind and helpful people to the general public but like the article said they are allowed to use deception and lie to the gentiles that is what they call all non lds members isnt strange through that you have a. child of 17. Saying he saw god in a field and god told him all churches were corrupt and they confess with thier mouths but their hearts were far from god and all christianity was a joke according to the lds church
From after 100 ad when the last apostle died til 1830 ad so pre reformationist teachers like
Peter waldo of the waldenes church 1300’s
John hus of the 1400”s
Simon menlo the mennonite. And amish Church 1500”s
The anabaptist movement of the 1500”s
Martin luther 1400”s
Tyndale 1400”s printed the first bible on the guttenburg press
Calvin 1400”s
Zwiegli 1400”s
The wesley brothers who started the methodist church in the 1700”s
They and all the other reformationist fathers got it all wrong sounds a bit fantastic of events
I dont think campbell or stone the first restoration theologians who came up with the same thing
26 years before joseph smith
Whom joe smith borrowed the whole restoration idea from ever condemed all of christianity to promote
Their theology view
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And how did Joe Smith find all this info from the woods of NY at the age of 14?
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Valarie experiences and emotion have nothing to do with truth
A mormon missionary plays upon that for prospective convert
To appeal to their emotions and experiences
They will tell to read the book of mormon and if it is correct
You will get a burning in a bosom
I then say if you get a burning in the bosom after praying if the bom is correct
Then should i pray for a burning in the bosom to tell me if cheating stealing and lying is correct
No because god instilled man with comoon sense of what is right or wrong i do not need to pray
If something is true or false then the missionary will bear his testimony that the bom is true
And the lds church is the true church and joseph smith was a real prophet of god all memorized
Script they are taught if confronted by those they will not listen to and agree with thier thelogy
Ask a missionary why the numbers of missionaries use to be twice as many years ago as their are
Currently because they are not converting as many people as they did years ago the opposite is true more people are leaving the lds church then coming into their church
They just wont admit it to the general public
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LDS missionaries are simply boys out of high school, nothing more. How many of your kids have you sent off to serve God for two years, oh thats right you do do that don’t you and you pay them 100K to do it for life. Pretty good gig for the right person huh? LDS do it at their own expense, live on 35.00 a week and NO ONE gets paid for anything in the church ministry. Yet they still grow and they have I think 85K missionaries in the field at any given moment. When a hurricane hit Haiti who was there first? The LDS with money and food via that other cult called the Catholic church. Go do some open minded research on the Book of Mormon and how it is constructed etc and tell me how one guy wrote it in less than 2 months and the Lord of the rings was 30years in the making and nowhere near as complex. Now with computer word printing, we can tell who wrote something based on their word choices etc. Mark Twain published some works under a fake name to see if it was his work or his name that sold the books. Now we know that it was Twain who wrote it. The Book of Mormon contains 55 Separate voices in it, none of them are Joseph Smiths way of writing not his scribe or even his wife.
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Ranger Bob, The LDS Church needs good PR. Also, you’re not aware maybe, The Marines are ALWAYS sent to natural disaster sites immediately. They clean up, find the lost, build new shelters and homes, they bring food and healthcare. Because you’re told the LDS is there first makes them more righteous than anyone else?
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Very sadly, I posted an anti-Mormon meme on facebook for one of my daughters to see…I made a mistake and posted it on her timeline, not privately…my nephew, Joel Pieper, saw it and he is a Mormon….he decided to punish me and now I cannot see in person or on facebook pictures of my three grandchildren he adopted with his Mormon wife, Krissy Pieper. So sad. I don’t hate them, I hate their cult religion that will send them to hell….as for my grandchildren they adopted, all I can do is pray for them, which I do everyday. What a sad, nasty cult they are in…I am saved, so all I really can do is pray for the grandchildren: Cassie, Emma and Luke.
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I am truly sad for you Arla, I would not cut anyone off from family, the LDS faith is all about families and getting along with everyone. Now, this doesn’t t mean there aren’t some jackasses in the barnyard by any means but I do know the LDS don’t teach casting anyone off from seeing kiddos especially the really cute ones. I currently hold dual citizenship in the Reformed Baptist and LDS worlds. I am genetically LDS from Nauvoo Illinois, my family is all LDS. I spent the first 20 years of adulthood in the Baptist world. I learned a tremendous amount from the Pastor about theology and church history, John Calvin, Martin Luther etc. When I decided to give the LDS faith a true inspection I had 20 years of serious theological teaching behind me. What I found was a church that had truly restored ancient concepts lost between Jesus death and the modern day. My research has been going on now for about 11 years. No, it doesn’t come from the LDS church. it comes from various sources of archaeology and even other faiths, The current “Christian” movement is lead by men who have been taught by men who have been taught by men who sat and argued over the exact substance of God. Does this save me more or less? In the end, it is simply the opinions of men. “The inerrancy of scripture is an excuse for lazy people” this is what the rest of Christianity accepts and clings to. Mankind is much like a horse that would rather stay on the barn as do some real work. Handing some one the inerrency of scrpipture is akin to Trust me I know what I’m doing here” What that quote means is that in order to truly know whether scripture is true or not each person should get it out and wrestle with it until they understand it. Also, I saw a Muslim man from the middle east ask what is a Bible? Various faiths have varying books in their bible. He simply asked which one is correct? which one is true? How many Books were omitted from the Bible way back when? Since the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls (LDS have been very big on this project of cleaning and translating them) many Books have come to light that were lost to history yet they were excluded from the current KJV. If one is to cast out the LDS as not being a Christian one must define what Christian is and what scripture is to be used. Then one must be very careful someone doesn’t cast you out as not being Christian due to your baptism beliefs, or you view of infant baptism. Let’s not forget Baptism for the dead which Paul had no problem with and was practiced for 400 years before the Catholic Church banned it, to gain more control over the people in my opinion. In the end can you tell me why we came here to this eart?
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Yes. Thinking and Destiny
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The fact that you think Mormon religion will them to hell for them believing different than you tells me that you are as wrong as Mormons. When other religions try to prove Mormons wrong based on their religious beliefs it just exposes the weakness of their religion too. I’m not saying Mormons are right but they aren’t going to hell any more than the rest of Christians. Mormonism does not have a monopoly on untrue beliefs.
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give up atheism. I did, it’s great! Instead, try Thinking and Destiny
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Indeed.
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One thing ppl do not say here is, what if we could pick apart the lives of our past prophets in the KJV? One thing I read many times was how many did not think they were even worthy. I don’t think it is wise to pick apart their lives to find judgement. I think we should base our beliefs on facts, knowledge, and the pursuit of happiness. So far the dna thing can be tossed off and said that what tribe were they testing? It’s not fair to say all native Americans came from mongoloids. Many of the ancient tribes of the Americas are mixed and nearly extinct. Did they test every nation? Then the racist stuff, geez I’m not even going to go into how many southern churches…..lol it’s not in our doctrine today. And the papyri, according to church leaders, said it’s a correction. I researched. I asked questions. Truth is you can say we are idiots, that we are going to hell, but those ppl you claim as doctrine in the Bible aren’t any better than you or I or even JS. Do we feel the spirit? Yes. And quite honestly I’ve never felt more strongly than when I prayed with mormons. Does the Bible ask u to go on faith? BoA ask you to go on faith?yes so y are we pulling apart these ppl? Who the heck knows what god could have in store for us tmrw. Worry about yourself. Those prophets in the Bible had a ton of wives and concubines! Abraham himself! So we condemn it bc it’s not what we practice now?
I’ll be honest I’ve had a hard time drinking the koolaid. But every time I find stuff knocking it, I find stuff to restore it. Once ppl have a faith it’s very hard to shirk it. If it isn’t true then how do we feel that spirit? Why?
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Hi Mary,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and musings. Let me address just the last little bit. It turns out that there are now rather solid naturalistic explanations for that powerful experience of feeling the spirit, which occurs in a number of religions and spiritual practices. My videos about cognitive science and Christianity delve into this a bit, as does Andy Thomson’s book, “Why We Believe in Gods.” (His video that inspired the book is available on Youtube.)
Warmly<
Valerie
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Thank you I have been looking everywhere for that! I would try and research the science behind the feeling but never got anywhere. Truth is I was born in Mormonism. And I always said if it’s wrong then, I just can’t even be a Christian. Honestly I think many are afraid to find out if it is wrong. Knowledge is pain. The thought of being lied to is sad. I’m still researching but I will let you know my conclusions after I read and watch.
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Again I thank you so much for the thought and information. These are my findings. Just because someone told me to search ponder and pray, that I will know by a burning in my heart is not going to make me feel that feeling. I don’t think you understand my question. I asked what is the science behind this feeling. Why do I feel the burn? So much sometimes it engulfs my entire chest. That’s a feeling, not a thought ma’am. Just because you want to be warm when it’s cold outside isn’t going to make you feel the heat and warmth if there is no heater.
I feel I may never know the real answer here. I’ve searched a long time to disprove this feeling because I’d really like to be able to feel good about doing bad things lolololol. The only thing that I have found that gives me this feeling is the spirit. The church tells everyday what it is, yet a scientist and a doctor of psychiatry can’t tell me why I’m feeling this.
I’m a mri imaging specialist, I’d love to get a hold of that functional mri study that shows what ppl are thinking when introduced thoughts of religion.
For everyone else that reads this. Do your own research. If you feel like I do and you just can’t explain that feeling I beg you to keep searching and if I’m wrong please show me! I wanna know what the heck that is from a science stand point.
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The problem with this article is that it is 20 % inaccurate. Like many other anti Mormon literature, all of the information gets thrown out because part of it is untrue. While I agree with most of the article, it would do more good if it was more accurate or better sourced. For example, Mormons don’t believe God the father lived in this earth. They believe he had a mortal experience in times past. Joseph had plutal wives bit the number is grossly exaggerated. Emma and Joseph’s ritual to get the plates is not ducmented anywhere. Stick to the facts that are documented and you will do more good in you efforts to disclose truth.
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1. How many teenagers and women do you think Smith talked into illicit unions with him? Mormon historian Todd Compton, who wrote In Sacred Loneliness, says there’s good evidence Smith entered into illicit unions (not Compton’s words) with at least 33 women, with Emma being his only wife.
Other scholars put the number as high as 40 or 50. As per Compton, one-third were between fourteen and twenty years of age. Another third were lawfully married, and some of the husbands served as witnesses at their own wife’s polyandrous union with Smith.
Also, in entering into these illicit unions with these teenagers and women, Smith disobeyed the revelation he said God gave him about polygamy. Conveniently, Smith’s revelation doesn’t seem to contain any punishment for Smith disobeying God, but if Emma disobeyed – and she did – she would “be destroyed.”
That part of his revelation didn’t come to pass. Could his “revelation” have been merely a way to have access to sex with lots of women and keep Emma quiet about it?
2. Where do Mormons believe God lived as a man?
General Authority Milton R. Hunter wrote:
Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar that through which we are now passing (The Gospel Through the Ages, 1945, p 104).
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You fail to realize personal revelation. Although your article may be logical, without revelation confirmed time, and time again, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints teaches true doctrine; I can testify of this, and hope one day, you will be curious enough to engage in thoughtful prayer with our Heavenly Father to be confirmed of the same
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All revealed religions rely on the same kind of “revelation,” the same kind of subjective evidence, and each persuades a great number of earnest truth seekers that they have the found the One Way. If a certain kind of evidence can lead to many different worldviews, then it isn’t actually evidence for any of them. It is evidence instead regarding the nature of the human psyche and persuasion–why and how we are so able to believe devoutly once we go down a certain thought path.
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Half of this is false. Black people were not cursed. This means black as in literal black. Like the color of this text black. Also, polygamy was once apart of the church but we have received revelation that we should no longer practice it. You shouldn’t go posting garbage like this. Especially since it’s not true. Go to church. At least we don’t go around saying things like “Buddhists are dumb because they believe in this and that” we have our beliefs like other religions.
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Typical immoral spiritual brain-washing
historical “Man/God/Ism…
And still humans believe the
Rituals each time they hear
The Pied Piper sounds…
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Since none of the sources for the ‘information’ in this post are referenced, it is hard to determine where the truth begins or ends. I managed to track down one: “Naked Truths About Mormonism”, allegedly written in 1888, which contains the alleged affidavits from people who grew up with Joseph Smith (but there was no copy of the book available in Google Books, Archive.com or Project Gutenberg, so it is difficult to evaluate the tone or credibility of its author, who by all accounts was an anti-Mormon ‘crusader’.). Since Joseph Smith was born in 1805, this would have made these informants (if they had actually existed) around 83 years old in the late 19th century at the time they made their affidavits. This in itself is possible but hardly credible, but this evidence is questionable for four reasons. Firstly, it is hardly a representative sample of people who grew up with Joseph Smith so we don’t know what biases are inherent in this ‘sample’. It also means that the vast majority of people that Smith grew up with were dead, so on the one hand, anyone who held a contrary view was probably not around to express it nor was anyone around who could have questioned whether these ‘witnesses’ ever actually knew Joseph Smith. Finally, at that age in that era, you would have to wonder about the accuracy of their memories and the extent to which having lived through 50 years of anti-Mormon propaganda they weren’t affected by False Memory Syndrome and conflated what they could actually remember with the propaganda they had heard.
The author of this article mentions “Lying for the Lord” but given that anti-Mormons had no problem with massacring Mormons including women and children, why wouldn’t they also be willing to manufacture their own “Lies for the Lord”? So you might reasonably compare “Naked Truths About Mormonism” with anti-Semites and the bogus “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”.
A lot of the other items on the list have been previously debunked decades ago (and on Google Books you can find books which do so.) But the thing I find particularly annoying is the idea that Mormons ‘conceal’ their true doctrines. Unless someone is EXTRAORDINARILY lazy, what Mormons believe is readily accessible on the Internet, you can read excerpts from Mormon books in Google Books and so on. You can get copies of their teaching publications on their website. And as a conversion strategy it would not be particularly effective since any convert who suddenly found out that what Mormons ‘really’ believed was radically different from what they had been told up front, would be perfectly free to leave the LDS Church and probably would.
I’m not a Mormon, but as a critical thinker, what I find disturbing is the number of people who have posted here who didn’t even bother to think critically about what was being said or to do any investigation themselves but simply blindly believed what confirmed their prejudices. It’s what I call ‘epistemic laziness’ and is one the prime intellectual sins of our age.Gullibility isn’t a virtue.
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I did spend a few hours looking online for information confirming these claims. I also knw a woman who grew up in the LDS church and back in about 1998-ish SHE called it a Cult. By the way, the book you referenced can be found at truthandgrace.com. Often very old books like this are no longer in print. This owner of this book might have one out of a handfull of them left. It’s remarkable they had this copy and were able to put it online for all to read. You were quibbling about the discrepency of dates. Remember, we had trains as our fastest mode of transportation which still didn’t service every community. It took a while to gather these stories, I’m sure. They had no electronic recording devices and the printing presses were greatly antiquated by our standards. No radio, electric lights, no gas powered vehicles. These stories may have been gathered over a few years period. You’re thinking in terms of the 21st Century. Besides, it’s a remarkably well written book for a man in the late 19th Century without a formal education. These are accurate stories and some are taken from actual local newspaper accounts. You’ll also find interesting historical information at the wikipedia page, The Killing of Joseph Smith.
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another question: Are you referring to the Mountain Meadow Massacre? That was proven to be Mormon men dressed as Paiutes. Mormons attacked and slaughtered Mormons. You knee jerk your response as a deefender of Mormonism but it appears it is you who is lacking information. You can’t imagine that this article is the result of critical thinking. You rush to the rescue without researching for yourself. Is that because you yourself are a devout Christian and believe that this article is an attack on all of Christianity. It is not. Joseph Smith was a con artist, a man who craved notoriety. It has been documented that his entire family were a menace to the county and surrounding areas. Do you think all of these people are lying? It’s fairly easy to find these accounts, you mentioned one of the books in your missive. Let’s not forget, the author of this posting provided links to follow which support the information she published. The Smith family were well known thieves. When the local Law began to close in on them, they had this method of claiming to have a “vision” showing them where the stolen item was located. This was especially the often used tactic of Joseph Smith. Their behavior had been documented at the time in newspaper accounts and in complaints to law enforcement. Joseph Smith intimidated male members of his congregation, threatening or commanding them with “God wants you to…” in order to bed down with their young wives. He was tarred and feathered once in another community for seducing then, having sex with a young girl. Do you still want to defend the Morman Faith? It’s based on the ramblings of an immoral, lascivious, manipulating, sociopath. It’s as if they have a Jim Jones type as their prophet and you think that’s a good basis for a (supposedly) Christian based faith?
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As I read through the list of the criticisms at the beginning of this site my thought on each one that I went through was that they were either false, misleading, and/or partially true. I wondered what type of half baked education the person had who wrote that initial post. Then I read that others here are who posted accused members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints of being uneducated. Then I read that the educated stay in The Church of Jesus Christ because they went to BYU!!! Amazing, absolutely amazing!!! I attend The Church of Jesus Christ with a number of members who have their undergraduate degrees and graduate degrees from all over the world. There are four universities in this area. Local LDS members that I see each have their degrees from the University of Alexandria in Egypt, Cornell, BYU, Long Island University, UC Berkeley, Stanford, the Air Force and Naval Academy and other illustrious as well as not so well known institution of higher learning. Me? I have my degrees from Southern Illinois University. I never took a class at BYU. I think some people need to rethink their biases and take a course in logic.
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The one dead give away to the Mormons is that they can never substantiate their beliefs.. Questioning them about their beliefs or how they justify their claims is always met with defensiveness and redirection to ” Other religions”… While Other Christian religions will point to the bible as their source, and find passage and verse to support their beliefs and although for instance the Protestants disagree with the Catholics, they do not take personally the attack, also,I have yet had an explanation as to how a war that claimed 230k casualties in up state New York can leave no trace of evidence. When asked, Mormons will take offense. When confronted about their inconsistencies, they fall back on personal testimony and defensiveness, instead of bringing Historical facts and Archeological evidence. The bible can be validated by Historical facts, supported by overwhelming archeological evidence and Scholars .. I just wonder why the BoM cannot, and why Members take such offense to this fact.. feeling personally offended when asked about the beliefs of your religion is a sure sign that your religion cannot stand the stress test that is needed to validate it’s claims. It would be an oddity that a protestant felt personally attacked if they were questioned about Martin Luther writing his 95 points on reformation in the 1500’s, thus causing the protestants to leave Catholicism.. They certainly would either tell the story, and back it up with historical undisputed fact, and leave the issue to stand or fall on it’s own merit, or they would shrug and say they didnt know… but I seriously doubt it would be taken as a personal attack..
Perhaps the personal frustration is when history contradicts their timeline and chain of events.. It’s fine to believe in yourself becoming a God… But the path to get there must not contradict historical fact..
By that I mean, you cannot make Christian claims that were not even around before Christianity. There was no baptism, or Church of Christ before Christianity You cannot claim God spoke to your Prophet in 1978 to magically accept Blacks into the priesthood, when CLEARLY your history shows an aversion towards blacks..I believe it was The Mormon president Kimball that was approached By US President Carter, and told of Federal discriminatory lawsuit threats if ” something didnt change”
Truth is sometimes so hard to take.
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I’m not a Mormon, but you raise two points that should be addressed.
Firstly, as the old saying goes “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence’. Take the Exodus. It is a pivotal event of the Bible, referred to in not only Torah, but in the Psalms and Prophets and in the New Testament. Yet there is zero physical evidence that it ever occurred. There is no written record from any of the neighboring ancient peoples that between 4 million and 6 million people wandered around for 40 years in the wilderness followed by a mass invasion of Canaan nor any physical evidence that it occurred. And contemporary archaeological and genetic evidence would suggest that it never happened. So based on your argument, should we cease to believe in the accuracy of the Bible and as a result cease to be Christians? I personally still believe that it happened regardless of the lack of evidence, and I would extend the same right to believe to my Mormon brethren. Whether or not evidence is preserved is surely in the hands of God. ( Note that there is physical evidence that the Trojan War occurred which to a limited extent vindicates Homer’s Iliad – but that in itself doesn’t prove that the Greek Gods exist or that the supernatural events recorded in the Iliad occurred.)
Secondly, both Luther and Calvin were racist, with a virulent hatred of the Jews. Does this lead you to disbelieve the rest of what they taught? Or more recently, the whole reason the Southern Baptist Convention exists is that they broke with the rest of the Baptist church over the issue of slavery. And in fact it is only in the last 12 months that they have issued a formal apology to African Americans over the historic stance of their church. Historically, the membership of the Ku Klux Klan has been drawn entirely from Protestants (since the apart from African Americans, the KKK hate both Jews and Catholics.) So given the historic record of the Protestant churches, do you think they have a right to sling mud at the Mormons? Note that Joseph Smith was pro-Jewish and not anti-African and the Mormon church has never denied actual membership to any race; the priesthood was denied to African Americans, however the reasons for this is unclear since Mormons claim that neither the Book of Mormon nor the Doctrines and Covenants, nor any other writings of Joseph Smith made this formal position of the church.
I believe the Bible to be true but I also believe that churches generally teach many things that are not clearly taught in the Bible (e.g. the Trinity wasn’t a Christian doctrine for the first three centuries of Christianity; that doesn’t mean that it isn’t true but it certainly raises serious doubts unless you accept the Catholic teaching on tradition.) So to that extent the Mormons are right: no contemporary church teaches what the first Christians believed.
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If it makes us better human beings, who cares if it’s right or wrong. That’s who God is, the good in all things.
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what you fail to realize is, the other religions who had to change their beliefs to accomodate new social and political norms did so by open recognition. However, the Mormans tried to sweep their past under the rug and claim, “Oh we haven’t been racist, our beliefs have been “accepting” all along. It’s ike the religion of Eddie Haskel.
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I have done extensive research on Mormonism
Besides the wacky claim.that native Americans are descendents of Hebrews
That inhabitants live on the moon and the sun
That god lived on a star named Kolob
That Jesus and satan our brothers
The denial of the doctrine of the trinity
The garden of eden was located in Missouri
Adam is god and took one of his wives into garden and conceived Jesus just like any ordinary baby
That their is no hell
But three heavens the celestial the terrestrial and whatever the other one is called
The belief in being married for all eternity in a temple doing Masonic type rituals
And wearing undergarments that are to protect the wearers
The despising of the cross
The false claims found in the Book of Mormon
The claim the lds church is the true church and all other churches are false
all these wacky things the lds church teaches proves they are wacky and a cult
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Ok, can you please tell me where you got this information, because many of the things you said are false. For example, Adam is God. I don’t know where you got this, but we do not believe this. We despise of the cross??? Where did you get this? We do not despise it by any means. Also where did you get that we don’t believe Jesus wasn’t perfect, and he was just an ordinary baby?!? We do not believe that.
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Susan, did you not read the article above? Please read it and then click on the links which are meant to be additional information and sources. Did you only read the title and skip down to the comments? Why demand the commenter provide his source when all you have to do is research on your own? Just don’t go to the Mormon sanctioned sites. They will just defend and support their doctrine. Mormonism is not a very old religion which means that there’s plenty of intact historical documentation to explore right here on the Internet. Would you go to a Vatican sanctioned site to get accurate information about the decades of child molestation and rape within the Catholic Church?
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Most religions have controversy at their roots, I would say ‘all’ but Buddhism seems untouched (to me).
Certainly racism crops up in many, especially Hinduism (Indira springs to mind). It is also not PC to mention it, but the FBI crime statistics do seem to indicate something is amiss – whether that can be named a curse or not seems trivial to me.
Other forms of bigotry seem to be an intrinsic staple in Islam and if Jews are to be considered to be a race, well …. there are some parts of Islamic scripture which are frightfully negative on this point.
Judaism speaks harshly and punitively over gentiles.
Not that these examples are to constitute endorsement of such hard heartedness or sumpremacy.
Whilst divinity is pure and correct, the minute it enters the earthly real, where all is tested and oft distorted. Surely it is in the hands and hearts of those who think deeply about that which is right and wrong, who try their very best to commune with our Heavenly Father, iron out the creases in the perfect garments which were sewn without seam, but got a little creased when stepping into a less perfect realm.
And the same might be said of the prophets who were or became men. In stepping down to our level, they too became worldly and flawed.
Surely it is about intention and endeavor. About how brightly the spark of divinity burns and in the window of the soul; there to banish darkness yet even in its purity, bend with the wind and leave soot and smoke occasionally.
Even an evil encounter can bring one closer to God.
I have read all these points and considered them. I am still mightily impressed with Fundamental Mormons and still planning to go pray with them tomorrow for the first time; having asked God to bring me closer to his truth and love. For I have been in the desert for decades and I truly thirst.
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As a child brain-washed into the LDS religion, had no choice. As an adult, I have a choice. The LDS practices are indeed racist. We were not allowed to date or befriend, people of color. Black skin was the “Mark of Cain.” What a horrible thing to propagate. Children are forced to “Bear their Testimony” and are completely brain washed from birth as to what that “Testimony” is and what to say. Joseph Smith was a conman, I believe. According to “Eye witnesses” Joseph Smith was “a thief, a drunk, an amoral man and a liar.” If the LDS church is based on that, it will be a huge awakening for members when the “Truth” is revealed. We already know there are MANY species of hominid that did not survive over the last 300,000 years. Proof in Peru, Turkey, basically the whole Middle East.
I was lucky to have been adopted as an older child. I knew about the real world already. The brain washing didn’t take, but I don’t have a close family, because I emphatically refuse to succumb to their false teachings. It is sad. No bigger judgy group exists. Please, EDUCATE YOURSELF! Everything you need to know, is out there. Don’t be Sheeple. The True Bible stories are found, “inconveniently”, by a farmer. You Can’t Hide the Truth…
#Annunaki #LDSandMasoniteRituals #PeruvianMummiesProvedAlienHybrid #TheTruthIsUnderOurFeet #Denisovans #MariaPeru #AsAboveSoBelow #TheWatchers #BibleIsNotTrueNow
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Never have I met a Mormon with a bad character, very pleasant, always looking towards the good, the positive, and that is all that matters to me as a muslim woman. Character matters, beliefs do not matter.
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Hi, my name is Natalie and I am 17 years old. I am not a scholar, I have not even graduated high school yet. The first thing I will say is this; I do not speak for the whole church. please keep that in mind if and when you read my comments. Okay, first of all I know that if I say I was born into the church many people will have already made a decision about who I am and if what I am saying is even worth it. So I won’t say that. I live in a community where there are a ton of members of the Lds church all around me. Everyone is related to each other and has the last name of Walker, Kofoed, or Medaris. My last name unfortunately is Walker. I say unfortunately because there is a large population of Walkers in my school and community. They are all related, hang out all the time, and are all the coolest kids in school, church, and sports. I have the “honor” of having that last name, and I am even 3rd cousins with all of them, but I reap no benefits. I am absolutely not the coolest person in the school, I am not the “most righteous mormon”, I am not the best and strongest at sports compared to them, I don’t have the best singing voice and I do not have all the friends in the world. Some of these people are just downright mean, but on the outside they look like the best kids in the world. They don’t pay me any attention unless it’s an opportunity to flex how many cousins they have and I am the only other “cousin” in the room. I could say a lot of these about this, such as, they are all so mean to me so that means the church isn’t true and I hate all mormons now. I could say and find evidence that because this group of people are basically a cult they represent the entire church as a cult.
There is a great quote that I would like to share and it is this. “You may not always look where you are going, but you will always go where you are looking.” If you look to prove the Book of Mormon is wrong, you will find evidence to make your point and fit your agenda. If you look to prove the Book of Mormon to be true you will also find evidence that will help prove your point and fit your agenda. You will always go where you are looking. On a different note, I love Christ. I depend on him because I am simply too weak to get through this life on my own. Being Meek is not the same as being Weak. I am still strong and secure enough with myself to get through much of what life has to offer, but recently in my life I hit a blank spot. I had questions. Which some people think is wrong in and of itself, because having true faith means not questioning right? Well actually it is the opposite. Having faith means believing in something you cannot see in spite of your questions. I asked people who I disagree with, and I asked people who were not of the same faith as I am, I asked people who were of the same faith as I am, and most importantly I asked God. I am gradually getting the answers I seek, not from one person, but from all perspectives. You all can say what you want about my mental stability, how wrong or right I am, and whether or not what I believe is true. In the end it does not matter. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and you cannot claim to know everything about what I believe.
I will close with this quote; “A person with an experience is NEVER at the mercy of a person with an opinion.”
I have real life experiences. In the seemingly short span of life I have lived, I have learned that NO one is perfect, and NO one is completely horrible either. I have a testimony of the goodness of God and of the goodness of people. That is all that matters in the end, the character and the intent of the heart.
-Natalie Walker
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Website that prove the lds is not a biblical church.
There is so much information available.
Mit.irr.org
Carm.org
Mrm.org
Cesletter.org
Godlovesmormons.com
I left the church 23 years ago.
I wish I had done it sooner.
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