Coauthor: Tony Nugent, Ph.D.
This decade has been called, “The Mormon Moment,” the time that America’s largest home-grown religion finally comes into its own as a part of the Christian tapestry. Even some LDS quirks seem to be turning into positives. Shifting sexual mores have made Mormon polygamy and sacred undergarments a matter more of slightly kinky fascination rather Puritan disgust. And after expressing big disapproval over Big Love, Church leaders shifted strategies and met the hit musical, the “The Book of Mormon,” with bemused acceptance, praising it “for really nailing the Mormon sweetness, niceness, and sense of do-gooderness,” and filling theater programs with their own advertisements.
In an effort to reassure Evangelical voters, presidential candidate Mitt Romney inserted the phrase “the same god” into his domestic policy debate against Barack Obama, and Billy Graham’s website showed solidarity by removing Mormonism from a list of “cults.” Since then, Mormon missionaries have been quoted as saying, “Even Billy Graham says we are Christians.” Over the course of 2012, the LDS Church promoted “I’m a Mormon,” a multi-million dollar marketing campaign seeking to portray Mormonism as mainstream. And on December 10, 2013, the Mormon church renounced and denounced a part of its racist past.
But do Mormons and Evangelicals worship the same god? How mainstream are their beliefs?
Dr. Tony Nugent, retired professor of religious studies, has compiled a list of twelve teachings that Mormons tend to downplay. Dr. Nugent calls each of these beliefs “questionable.” A quick read suggest they also are far from mainstream.
1. The American Continent Was Originally Settled by Ancient Near Easterners.
The story of the Book of Mormon (BoM) is that the American continent was originally settled by people from the ancient Near East who came across the ocean in boats between 5000 and 2500 years ago. This includes four groups: the Jaredites, who came from Mesopotamia after the fall of the Tower of Babel (3rd Millennium BC), and three groups of Israelites who came in the 6th Century B.C.—Lehites from the tribe of Manasseh, Ishmaelites from the tribe of Ephraim, and Mulekites from the tribe of Judah. Contrary to this view, archaeological, historical, and genetic evidence indicates that the American continent was originally settled by Mongoloid people who came over the Bering land bridge during the last Ice Age and who are the ancestors of today’s Native American people.
2. Native Americans Are Descendants of Ancient Israelites.
Much of the BoM story focuses on two groups of Israelites in the New World, the Nephites and the Lamanites, descended from two of the sons of Lehi of the tribe of Manasseh. These groups fought continually, but when Christ came from heaven after his ascension to visit them in AD 34, they all believed in him and stopped fighting. However, in the 3rd and 4th Centuries AD, when the Lamanites stopped believing in Christ, these peaceful relations ended. Their renewed hostilities culminated in a great religious war in AD 385 at the hill Cumorah in upstate New York, in which the Lamanites were victorious and 230,000 Nephites were killed. The few surviving Nephites soon died, and the surviving Lamanites became the “American Indians.”
Among the problems with this scenario are that there is no evidence that any Native American groups are Semitic, but rather that they are Mongoloid; there are no surviving traces in their cultures of ancient Israelite customs, language, or religion; and there are no traces of their supposedly former Christian practices and beliefs.
Then from where would Joseph Smith have gotten this story? The mistaken idea that the American Indians descend from the lost tribes of Israel was, in fact, a very popular idea in the United States in the early 19th Century. The closest parallel to Joseph Smith’s version of the idea is found in Ethan Smith’s View of the Hebrews, published in 1823, just four years before Joseph started working on the BoM. The many specific parallels between these two works have often been noted. How might Smith have known about this work? From Oliver Cowdery, one of Smith’s scribes in the translation of the BoM and whose family attended the church in Vermont where Ethan Smith was pastor at the time he was writing his book. In her 1945 work, No Man Knows My History, Fawn Brodie writes, “Thus where the View of the Hebrews was just bad scholarship, the BoM was highly original and imaginative fiction.” (Brodie, p. 48)
3. Dark Skin is a Sign of God’s Curse, White Skin a Sign of God’s Blessing.
In the BoM dark skin is a sign of God’s curse, while white skin is a sign of his blessing. When the Lamanites displease God, “because of their iniquity….the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them” (2 Nephi 5:21). Later, when the Lamanites become Christians, “their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites” (3 Nephi 2:15). Other racist passages in the scripture have simply been changed by Mormon authorities—e.g., 2 Nephi 30:6, which originally referred to conversion to Christianity bringing about a “white and delightsome people,” now reads, as of 1981, “a pure and delightsome people.” As for black people, Joseph Smith taught that they are cursed as “sons of Cain.” Brigham Young, the successor of Joseph Smith, stated: “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10). Since blacks were a stigmatized race in Mormonism, black men were denied ordination to the priesthood in the LDS Church. While the LDS Church, under pressure, finally granted black men the priesthood in 1978, the racism in their Scriptures remains as offensive as ever. Note: The doctrine that black skin is a punishment was renounced by the Church hierarchy in December 2013.
4. The BoM is Based on a Historically Accurate and Believable Ancient Work.
Mormon authorities teach that the BoM is a translation from ancient records written in a “Reformed Egyptian” script on metal plates between the years 2500 BC and AD 421. Among the many reasons for doubting this claim are the following:
- Many different animals, plants, & manufactured goods are reported in the BoM story as being present in the New World during this time period. There is apparently no credible evidence that any of the following were present in the New World during this time period: cows, horses, oxen, asses, goats, sheep, pigs, honeybees, elephants, barley, wheat, silk, iron & brass metallurgy, steel, metal coins, swords, chariots, wheels, compasses, and metal plates inscribed with writing.
- Many passages in the BoM repeat Old and New Testament biblical passages word-for-word. But how would Nephi, for instance, who lived in the 6th Century BC, know passages in Old Testament books such as Malachi, written after his time, and in the New Testament, written 600-700 years later?
- Analogously, why would distinctively Christian practices and beliefs, including the establishment of a “Church of Christ,” the practice of baptism, and belief that those not baptized are damned to be tortured in hell for eternity, be found in ancient records said to have been written before the beginning of the Christian Era?
- In the second verse of the BoM Nephi says, “Yea, I make a record in the language of my father, which consists of the learning of the Jews and the language of the Egyptians.”(1 Nephi 1:2). Later in the work Moroni says that his record is “in the characters which are called among us the reformed Egyptian” (Mormon 9:32). These are problematic statements. First of all, the term “Jew” refers to the people of the tribe of Judah and those from the other tribes who joined with them, starting with the period of the Babylonian exile (which is after Lehi’s family has left Jerusalem). In addition, there is no biblical or other evidence that Israelites of the 6th Century BC spoke Egyptian or wrote using any of the forms of Egyptian hieroglyphics.
5. Joseph Smith Translated the Book of Mormon from Gold Plates.
The Mormon story is that the Nephite military commander and prophet Moroni buried a history of his people, written on “gold plates,” in the hill Cumorah in AD 421. 1400 years later, on the night of September 22-23, 1823, Moroni, now having become an angel, visits 17-year-old Joseph Smith in his bedroom and tells him where the plates are buried. It happens to be just 3 miles south of where Smith lives. He goes there and sees the plates in a stone box, but as soon as he tries to take them the angel forbids him. He returns to the same spot on the same night of the year for the next two years, without success. Then, by looking into his seer-stone or “peep stone,” a chocolate-colored, egg-shaped stone which he had found when digging a well in 1822 and used to find lost and buried treasure, Smith learns that to be successful he must marry Emma Hale and take her with him to Cumorah. So on Sept. 22, 1827, he and Emma conduct a “black magic” ritual: at midnight, dressed entirely in black, they drive a black carriage drawn by a black horse to the hill. Joseph unearths the box and takes the plates, along with some magical eyeglasses made out of stones (called “interpreters” and “the Urim and Thummim”) with which to decipher the “reformed Egyptian” language in which the texts on the plates are written. According to Smith, the plates were “six inches wide and eight inches long and not quite as thick as common tin;” they were “filled with engravings in Egyptian characters and bound together in a volume, as the leaves of a book with three rings running through the whole;” and the stack of metal pages stood about six inches high.
Smith’s main translation process involved putting the interpreters (or his “peep-stone”) in a hat, putting his face in the hat (he didn’t need to view the plates themselves), and dictating to a scribe. After 116-initial pages of translation were lost by Smith’s scribe Martin Harris, Moroni supposedly took away the interpreters, and Smith was forced to rely on his old and trusty peep-stone. Smith’s translation was completed at the end of June 1829, and the BoM was first published by E.B. Grandin in Palmyra, NY, in March 1830. Where can we see these marvelous gold plates? We can’t, because Smith gave them back to Moroni.
6. There Are Testimonies to the “Gold Plates” from 11 Credible Witnesses.
But, say Mormon texts, there were 11 “witnesses” to the gold plates! These witness statements are printed at the beginning of each copy of the BoM. Three witnesses declare that an angel of God showed them the engravings upon the plates, while the eight others claim that that Joseph Smith showed them the plates with their engravings, which they also handled. Regarding the first three witnesses, Martin Harris said he had “never claimed to have seen the plates with his natural eyes,” but only with “spiritual eyes.” Oliver Cowdery was a relative of Smith’s, served as his scribe in translating the BoM, and was accustomed to having otherworldly visions. He told Smith that he had seen the gold plates in a “vision” even before the two of them had met. The third, David Whitmer, later said that the angel he saw “had no appearance or shape,” that he merely had the “impression” of an angel.
A few years after the BoM was published these three witnesses were excommunicated and harshly denounced and insulted by Smith. He described Whitmer as “an ass to bray out cursings instead of blessings.” He denounced Cowdery as “too mean to mention” and the leader of a gang of “scoundrels of the deepest degree.” He said Martin Harris was “so far beneath contempt that to notice him would be too great a sacrifice for a gentleman to make.”
Regarding the other eight witnesses, one of them was Joseph Smith’s father, two of them were his brothers, and the other five were close relations of David Whitmer. All the Whitmer family witnesses were later excommunicated, although David eventually rejoined the church.
7. Ancient Prophecies in Mormon Scriptures Foretell the Coming of Joseph Smith.
Joseph Smith, Jr. couldn’t resist the temptation of injecting a self-serving prophecy of himself into the BoM. In the section of the book supposedly written in about 600 BC an Israelite by the name of Nephi reports that the biblical patriarch Joseph uttered this prophecy: “A seer shall the Lord my God raise up,” and “his name shall be called after me; and it shall be after the name of his father” (2 Nephi 3:6,15). Here we have a prophecy like a riddle, the answer to which is, of course, Joseph Smith, Jr. and Sr. Not satisfied to have this prophecy of himself and his father only in the BoM, Smith goes further by adding nearly-identical verses to the text of the Bible. In the last chapter of Genesis in Smith’s Inspired Version of The Holy Scriptures, the Lord says to Joseph just before he dies in Egypt: “That seer will I bless…..and his name shall be called Joseph; and it shall be after the name of his father; and he shall be like unto you.” This and the many other “prophecies” in Mormon scripture are cases of what is known in biblical scholarship as a vaticinium ex eventu, a “prophecy after the fact.” And it is one where the ulterior motive of the perpetrator of the hoax could not be more evident.
8. Joseph Smith Restored What Catholics Removed from the Bible.
What is the basis for this and the many other Mormon additions to the Bible? As explained in 1 Nephi, these are needed because the “Great and Abominable Church, which is most abominable above all other churches,” traditionally understood in Mormonism as the Roman Catholic Church, has “taken away” from the Bible “many plain and precious things.” But in fact this couldn’t have been the work of the Catholics, because there’s no sign of these omissions in the Hebrew Bible, written several hundred years before there were any Christians or churches! It must have been the nefarious Jews who did it, which would explain why so many of the passages Joseph Smith identifies as having been removed from the Bible and which he restores are its Old Testament (< Hebrew Bible) references to Jesus Christ. Take parts of the 6th chapter of Genesis in the Inspired Version: God says to Adam, “Turn unto me….and repent of all thy transgressions, and be baptized, even in water, in the name of mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth, which is Jesus Christ” (Genesis 6:53). And then “Adam cried unto the Lord, and was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water; and thus he was baptized” (Genesis 6:67).
9. The LDS Church’s Theological Doctrines Are Not Significantly Different from Those of Mainstream Christian Denominations.
In the last few decades LDS authorities have made a major effort to downplay its distinctive teachings (and practices) in order to present as a “mainstream” Christian denomination. These distinctive doctrines include the following: (The last two were taught by Joseph Smith but are not official doctrines of the LDS church.)
- God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three separate divine beings (Mormonism is anti-Trinitarian).
- In his pre-mortal existence Jesus Christ, the literal Son of God the Father, was the LORD (= Jehovah/Yahweh) of the Old Testament
- Humans have pre-mortal existences as spirit-children of God the Father and a Heavenly Mother.
- Humans can become angels, and angels can become humans, e. g., Adam used to be St. Michael (refer to Temple Endowment ceremony), Noah used to be St. Gabriel, and the Nephite man Moroni became the angel Moroni.
- Matter has always existed, so the Creation was not ex nihilo.
- There is no “hell” in the traditional Christian sense but rather a spirit prison where wicked spirits are cleansed in preparation for their resurrection.
- A deceased person who was never baptized can get to the Celestial Kingdom as a result of a proxy baptism in a Mormon temple.
- The highest level of the Celestial Kingdom is reserved for couples who have been “sealed” in a Mormon temple for a life of “eternal marriage.”
- God the Father used to be a human living on the earth (Joseph Smith, “King Follett Discourse,” 1844)
- Humans can become Gods (be exalted) in the future and dwell in the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. (Joseph Smith, “King Follett Discourse,” 1844)
1o. “If ye abide not that covenant [plurality of wives] then are ye damned.”
Since the 19th Century the LDS church has denied that polygamy is a part of its core doctrines, and many Mormons deny that Joseph Smith was a polygamist. However, the doctrine of “plural marriage,” referring in this case to a man having more than one wife (polygyny), was revealed to Joseph Smith at Nauvoo, IL, on July 12, 1843, and was enshrined in 1876 as Section 132 of Doctrine and Covenants (D&C), one of the LDS Church’s scriptures. At the same time Section 101 in the early edition of the D&C, specifying the rule of monogamy, was removed. In this new “revelation,” God declares plurality of wives as essential for attainment of godhood (article 20), that those who reject it are damned (article 4), and that if Emma Smith rejects Joseph’s other marriages he will destroy her (article 54). This revelation was kept secret from the general church membership until Brigham Young made it known in 1852.
The principle of plural marriage in Mormonism has its roots in 1832, when Joseph Smith told his innermost circle that “he had inquired of the Lord concerning the principle of plurality of wives, and he received for an answer…that it is a true principle, but the time had not yet come for it to be practiced.” At about that time, when Joseph and Emma had become boarders at the home of John and Elsa Johnson in Hiram, Ohio, people in the neighborhood suspected that Joseph was having a sexual relationship with their daughter, 15-year old Marinda Nancy Johnson. According to a statement by Marinda’s brother Luke Johnson, on March 24, 1832 “a mob of forty or fifty…entered his room in the middle of the night….he was then seized by as many as could get hold of him, and taken about forty rods from the house…they tore off the few night clothes that he had on, for the purpose of emasculating him, and had Dr. Dennison there to perform the operation; but he refused to operate. The mob…poured tar over him, and then stuck feathers in it and left him.” Early the following year 16-year-old Fanny Alger moved into the Smith house as a domestic servant, and in February or March Joseph took her as his plural wife. He kept this secret from Emma, but in 1835 she caught them in flagrante delicto and ejected Fanny from the house. This incident led to a severe rift between Smith and his collaborator Oliver Cowdery, who referred to it as “a dirty, nasty, filthy affair.”
These conflicts apparently did little to alter Smith’s course of action. “Joseph continued to take plural wives throughout the 1830’s in Ohio and Missouri, and he married with even greater frequency in Nauvoo in the early 1840’s.” In his lifetime Smith “married at least thirty-three women, and probably as many as forty-eight.” (Krakauer, Under the Banner of Heaven, pp. 5, 119-121)
Mormons who are taught that Joseph was a “devoted husband” (see the LDS Church’s website) should be reminded that Emma Smith never accepted the principle or the practice of plural marriage. After Joseph’s death she did not join the Mormons moving west to Utah, led by the polygamist Brigham Young. Instead she stayed behind and joined the anti-polygamist Reorganized LDS Church (known today as the Community of Christ). While the practice of polygamy has been forbidden in the LDS Church since the “1890 Manifesto,” it is still enshrined in the revealed Scriptures as necessary for obtaining “godhood.”
11. Joseph Smith Translated the Book of Abraham from Egyptian Papyri.
In July of 1835 a man by the name of Michael Chandler brought some Egyptian mummies and papyri which had been excavated near the ancient city of Thebes to Kirtland, OH, and sold them to Joseph Smith. Although Smith had no knowledge of the ancient Egyptian language or writing, he nevertheless “translated” some of these papyri, and in 1842 published the results along with three “facsimiles” (with interpretations) as the Book of Abraham. In 1880, thirty-six years after Smith’s death, this work was incorporated as Part 2 of the LDS Church’s scripture known as The Pearl of Great Price. In Smith’s “translation” the patriarch Abraham tells a story of traveling from Chaldea to Egypt, where a priest lays him on an altar to sacrifice him, but he is miraculously saved by an angel of God; he gives a discourse about the universe, time, and stars, including the star/planet Kolob, which is closest to the throne of God; and he provides a polytheistic paraphrase of the first two chapters of Genesis which substitutes the word “Gods” for the biblical “God” and “Lord God.”
Many prominent 19th and 20th Century Egyptologists have examined the Joseph Smith papyri, including the one from the Egyptian “Book of Breathings” which is thought to be the specific papyrus which Smith translated as the main text of the Book of Abraham. All the papyri are inscribed with hieratic funerary texts, and the “Book of Breathings” is dated to the 1st Century BC or AD, 2000 years after Abraham supposedly lived. It is the unanimous opinion of the many Egyptologists who have examined the papyri that the text of Smith’s Book of Abraham, together with his related interpretations of the papyrus “facsimiles,” bear no resemblance whatsoever to the papyri texts. The Book of Abraham is, in the words of these renowned Egyptologists, an “impudent fraud” (A. H. Sayce, Oxford Univ.), “absurd” (W. M. Flinders Petrie, London Univ.), a work by an “absolutely ignorant” person (James H. Breasted, Univ. of Chicago), a work whose “explanations [of the facsimiles] are completely wrong” (Richard A. Parker, Brown Univ.), a “pure fabrication” (Arthur C. Mace, Metropolitan Museum of Art), a “work of pure imagination” (S. A. B. Mercer, Western Theological Seminary).
12. Joseph Smith Was a Highly Ethical, Honest, Truth-Seeking, Law-Abiding Person.
Although Joseph Smith was clearly very charismatic, there is considerable evidence that the official Mormon view of his pure moral character is a fiction. When Smith became famous as the “Mormon Prophet,” people who knew him from his early years were aghast, and they express their feelings in the following signed affidavits:
Mrs. S. F. Anderick: “Jo was pompous, pretentious…claimed he could tell where lost or hidden things and treasures were buried. He deceived many farmers.”
Isaac Butts: “I have frequently seen Jo drunk. He had a forked witch-hazel rod, later a peep-stone with which he claimed he could locate buried money or hidden things.”
W. R. Hine: “I heard a man say who was a neighbor to the Mormon Smith family, that they were thieves, indolent, the lowest, meanest family he ever saw or heard of.”
Joseph Rogers: “Farmers said he as a terror to the neighborhood and that he would either have to go to State prison, be hung, or leave the county, or he would be killed. Jo contrived in every way to obtain money without work. The farmers claimed that not a week passed without Jo stole something. I knew at least one hundred farmers in the towns of Phelps, Manchester, and Palmyra, N.Y., who would make out that Jo Smith the Mormon prophet was a a liar, intemperate and a base imposter…He could read the character of men readily and could tell who he could dupe.”
Mrs. Sylvia Walker: “They [the Smith family] were the lowest family I ever knew. They worked very little and had the reputation of stealing everything they could lay their hands on….When Jo told his neighbors about finding gold plates no one believed him nor paid any attention to it, he had humbugged them so much.”
On August 1, 1831, Joseph Smith received a revelation which became Section 58 of Doctrine and Covenants. Verse 21 of that section states: “Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land” (D&C 58:21). This revelation is at odds with his own life history. Beginning at least as early as 1826, when he was 25 years old, until his death, Smith was continuously in trouble with legal authorities. In his lifetime Smith had to defend himself in forty-eight criminal cases and had a total of over 200 suits brought against him. His troubles with the law caused the parents of his first wife, Emma Hale, to disown their daughter. Many of Smith’s trials are attributed by Mormons to religious persecution. However, his legal troubles predate his religious proclamations. Smith’s first known trial, on March 20, 1826, in East Bainbridge, NY, he was arrested, jailed, charged, and convicted of being “a disorderly person and an imposter” and “falsely pretending to discover lost goods.”
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The questionable beliefs and teachings outlined above, as well as others not discussed, have created problems for Mormons, their leaders, and the LDS Church from the religion’s beginnings until today. The Church does not allow members to openly and independently investigate or question its core beliefs or historical claims, or to challenge its leadership or core values. It does not allow hard-to-swallow doctrines to be discussed with potential converts before they have digested simpler ones (called “milk before meat”), nor for these doctrines to be publicly disseminated. When members do these things, and do not leave the Church voluntarily, they are “disfellowshipped” or excommunicated. Witness the famous modern-day 1993 case of the “September Six.”
“Lying for the Lord” is the term some ex-Mormons use for the Mormon practice of not telling the whole truth or dissimulating when necessary to further the image and interests of the Church. In the 19th Century, when the clash between Mormons and mainstream Christians was more overt, deception was more overt as well. Examples often cited are the denials by LDS leaders and members when they were charged with condoning and practicing polygamy (“plural marriage”). Since polygamy became illegal throughout the United States in the mid-19thCentury, church leaders such as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and Heber Kimball, as well as members who practiced polygamy were breaking the law, so that secrecy and denial were considered necessary to protect the church. At times deception assumed the status of a religious duty. This stance led to perjury by LDS President Joseph Fielding Smith and others during the Reed Smoot Congressional Hearings of 1904-7.
The historical necessity of self-protective deception creates a conundrum in that the Mormon religion strongly values honesty both in private life and in its public image. Yet the issue of deception in Mormonism runs deeper than a matter of “situational ethics.” Consider the following statements by Mormon leaders:
Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth president of the LDS Church (1970-72): “If Joseph Smith was a deceiver, who willfully attempted to mislead the people, then he should be exposed; his claims should be refuted, and his doctrines shown to be false.” (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, p. 188).
Orson Pratt, elder and member of the original Quorum of the LDS Church: “The Book of Mormon…must be either true or false. If true, it is one of the most important messages ever sent from God to man…If false, it is one of the most cunning, wicked, bold, deep-laid impositions ever palmed upon the world, calculated to deceive and ruin millions” (Introduction, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, 1850).
Should Mormonism be founded in an elaborate hoax, as much evidence suggests, then deception is not just an occasional practice, but the foundation structure upon which the entire edifice of the Mormon religion has been erected. Mormons of good faith are then inescapably caught between the demands of doctrine and their core moral values of honesty and integrity.
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More about Mormonism:
Mormon Church: Dark Skin a Sign of God’s Curse No Longer
Does Mitt Romney Think He’s a Jew?
Are Mormon Underwear Magic Between the Sheets?
Valerie Tarico is a psychologist and freelance writer, and the author of Trusting Doubt: A Former Evangelical Looks at Old Beliefs in a New Light. Dr. Tony Nugent is a symbologist and retired professor of religious studies.
AwayPoint 
Dang, I really don’t want to say this because it’s totally, totally uncharitable, but hey – Mormonism is a screwball religion. Wait! Wait! That doesn’t mean all Mormons are screwballs, I suspect most of them simply do not reflect too much on the details of their church’s beliefs and Mormonism is either tied up with family history or maybe a job thing, or maybe a benefits thing, or maybe all three.
However, if a Mormon believer has achieved a college degree then I would expect him/her to become an ex-Mormon fairly quickly – at least mentally, if not then there’s definitely something lacking in their education. Waaaay lacking.
As for electing a college-educated, BELIEVING Mormon for U.S. President? You have got to be kidding!! There is something (a lot actually) that is very un-intelligent about Mormonism, and being the Presidency of this country demands a clear head and very intelligent thinking – betcha $10,000!
I hope I’ve not offended too many folks, however if you’ve truly been offended (as in: you got a severe nosebleed from reading this) AND would like to send me $10, then it’s possible I might apologize profusely, I doubt it, but it’s possible. And NO I’m not on FaceBook.
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Of course you left unsaid that they’re ALL screwball.
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Okay, I understand that you guys might think that this is “proof” that Mormons don’t know what they’re talking about, and that they’re living a lie, but do any of you have the right to judge them? I mean, have you actually read the Book of Mormon? And by read I mean really studied. Not with a critical mind, but an open one. I guarantee you that if you read the Book of Mormon cover to cover, keeping an open mind to the gospel, and to the incredible feeling of the spirt, you will feel it.
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No were not. It’s makes more sense sense then some other Christian religions. At least we don’t persecute other fellow Christians! We accept who you are for what you are. Christ is the center of Mormonism. It is my center. I hope it is your’s as well.
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?????? Lash Really? When young men walk into a house, all over the world, and say “we are the only true church and all others are false” what would you call that? Nice try though.
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I just gotta say as an LDS member that…. I’m only LDS to make my wife happy. It is screwy but hey some people need faith and it isn’t my place to try to crush others beliefs.
It is commonly taught that the higher education a LDS member achieves the more likely they are to stay in that religion but I wonder if that is only because of the influence of BYU. Taking classes there I noticed that the amount of indoctrinating is heavy and for a non-believer it is stifling.
What is sickening to me is that the most important teachings in the church are; love god, love your neighbor (everyone), and that god gave us all free agency (freedom of choice). So while those are the most important teachings many members are very unkind and are not understanding of others. Voting against others freedom is a common example; If it was up to LDS members there would be no gay marriage, no alcohol, no abortion, no cigarettes, and I’m sure it could go on… very loving and non-judgmental huh!
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I grew up in a Mormon family and have rarely come across people who strive so hard to help others, who look for opportunities to do good, who give of them selves and their possessions more willingly. I have so many unanswered questions and concerns with church history but the internet was not so readily accessible in the 1900’s and these folks have not had all of the facts given to them of the church from the beginning of there fellowship so I feel it’s best to not judge things you have no interest in understanding or judge people who are genuinely seeking to do good. I love the basic principles of the church and have not been to another church in Australia that teaches as well as the Mormon’s. And now with the recent age of the internet and many followers finding things out about the church history that they previously had never looked into and having there faith challenged, it becomes a challenging time. I don’t think there is a church in the world that does not have a past. I continue to encourage mormans to keep on living good strong moral lives as they do a lot of good. But now the challenge is deciphering God’s word from man made philosophy. If you have the answers feel free to let us all know but I don’t believe anyone does. Also what grace has said is interesting, there is so much good and so many lessons that can be taken from the book or Mormon it is difficult for any person who loves and strives to follow Christ denounce it’s worth.
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Not screwballs just good people.
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Mental compartmentalization. They are crazy beliefs they say they believe but if you really committed 100% to them, you’d be mad. So it’s really just a code they have, a sort of unspoken agreement: You say you believe this thing and I’ll say I believe it and we’ll know we’re from the same tribe. It’s rather sick.
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their rules suck and I don’t think they want to mess with me and about black people they are bunch of bigots
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The truth is that Mormons actually get more faithful and active in the Church with higher degrees of education. We believe that God has commanded and encouraged us to pursue higher education which is why you will find so many Mormons in all sectors of life.
Of course, when believes are taken out of context and caricaturized it can make a belief sound silly, but the foundation of my belief is in Jesus Christ and his Gospel. All of the teachings of the Church are ultimately his and consistent with his instructions and commandments. What really sets us apart is the, completely scriptural, belief in continuing revelation and a living Prophet. As there were apostles in Christs time, so there are Apostles in our time. Thanks to continuing inspiration both personal and institutional I am able to follow the spirit of God in all things and stay on the right path.
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With that said can you explain to me what the book of Mormon means by “If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10). I’ll wait
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In ancient Israel, God had certain rules about priesthood and mixing such as the rule that one from the house of Levi could not marry outside of that house or lose his priesthood. (This is recorded in the Old Testament when speaking about the priests returning from Babylon that were cut off from the priesthood lineage). God’s rules are based on purity and on keeping his people righteous. However, when the priesthood was extended to all males that restriction was eliminated. Likewise, with any restriction on inter-racial marriage. In our day, because the priesthood is available to all worthy males, God encourages us to marry any worthy individual (of the opposite sex). He extends the priesthood according to his own design and pattern.
As far as the threat of death goes, there is no evidence that Brigham Young or anyone else actually attempted to kill individuals that married outside of the race, so I tend to view such rhetoric as hyperbolic and a symbol of the spiritual death that would come from being cut off from the lineage of the priesthood…. B. Young Probably could have chosen his words more carefully, but that was his style and his rhetoric does not make him any less of a prophet.
Also, that quote is not in the Book of Mormon….
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if Jesus is not your foundation and you trust that you can accomplish perfection in yourself without His Holy Spirit you will no make it to heaven..He is the way the truth and the life… NO OTHER WAY!
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See Orthodox Church History
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HI Katherine: I’ve worked with many Mormons over the years in engineering and sciences. What I have found is that their level of education has nothing to do with the facts. It is more about a desire to know truth. In most cases, they have been in the Church so long, to face the reality of facts would leave them empty and in a wasteland. So, they bury their head in personal testimony. The facts are, only 2 of 10 young men are going on mission today in contrast to 70%. The Church has a zero % membership gain in the U.S. and elsewhere in the world except the Pacific Islands (Micronesia). A former Mormon friend who came off mission about 3 years ago, told me if a missionary gets 1 or 2 families to join the church, they consider it a successful mission and, half of those turn out to be con’s who are just looking for something from the Church. The truth is, the Web has caused tens-of-thousands of Mormons to know the facts about the Church and it can no longer be censured by the Church leadership as before. No more spin doctrine on the Spaulding manuscripts. No more spin doctrine on the Book of Abraham. No more spin doctrine on Joseph’s many affairs and need for polygamy to suddenly be the solution. If Mormonism did not claim to be true based on historical facts (BOM), there would be no issue. In the 1800’s that was easy. In 2016, it is not. Check out my facts above. Plan9fromKolob
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Give me a break. MEN are encouraged to pursue higher education and have lucrative careers so they can support their stay at home wives and numerous children.
Often, women are discouraged from and even criticized for pursuing higher education and careers. Women are expected to get married young (an unmarried 23-year old Mormon woman is considered old) and have many children.
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Electing a college-educated, believing in any form of supernatural being person for any position in public service should be illegal! CASE CLOSED!
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Yeah, that would require an amendment to undo one of the other amendments.
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Wrong on all accounts. We have all the same knowledge and resources at our disposal. I am not being tricked into being a Mormon.
We both simply believe that we read, comprehend and understand things better than the other person. Simple as that.
Anything anyone believes can be thwarted to look screwy.
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I might counter that not all beliefs are created equal. Some are better substantiated and more accountable than others. For some, our best explanations for why they exist and replicate have more to do with psychology than history.
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” We both believe that we read, comprehend and understand things better than the other person. Simple as that.” Therein lies the tragedy that is Mormonism. Been there done that. It is actually absolute rubbish. Then after resigning in 2016 after a membership of 55 years, I only then started to understand things better e.g. that Isaac was Not the son Abram was required to offer on the altar but rather Ishmael. Thank the Lord I passed through the Mormon veil of indoctrination.
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https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service?lang=eng
This is the link to Preach My Gospel, the standard instruction manual required to be studied and taught by all LDS missionaries. It contains the required lessons to be taught to investigators of the church before baptism into the church. By the simple fact that a large amount of the doctrines the author claims the church wants to sweep under the rug are actually contained in required pre-baptismal learning modules that are rigidly followed, the basic premise of this article, that “mormons might not want you know about” these doctrines is clearly false. I also find the idea that the LDS church discourages personal inquiry completely absurd and obviously based upon reactionary statements from dissidents. A simple and non-jaded inquisition into LDS worship would quickly demonstrate that few things are held more sacred by Mormons then personal testimony and person revelation. Watch a recording of any LDS General Conference and half of the message can usually be summed up as question, ask, learn for yourself, come to a personal knowledge, seek more understanding, don’t take my word on what the scriptures say – read them yourselves daily, pray daily, seek affirmation of God’s will in all of your choices, etc. I pray for two things at this time. The first is for the Christian world, that our energies can be spent in strengthening each other instead of tearing each other down and doing good in the world instead of wasting countless amounts of energy nit-picking over our doctrinal differences. The second is for the atheists, agnostics, and other non-believers who have grown so militant in their anti-religious sentiment, that you can step away from the dogmas of your own long enough to realize that the fallibility of man will never allow for infallible conclusions no matter the evidence. May we all live in love and tolerance.
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I joined the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS WHILE I WAS @ UNIVERSITY WHEN I WAS 21 YEARS OLD. IT WAS AN INFORMED DECISION THAT I HAVE – NEVER – HAD THE SLIGHTESSED REGRET ABOUT; THAT WAS OVER 44 YEARS AGO. I ENCOUNTERED NOTHING NEW OR SUBSTANTIAL IN THIS ‘ARTICLE’—ANY FAIRMIJNDED OR UNINFORMED PERSON CAN SEE FROM THE PREMISE OF THE TITLE THAT THEY ARE NOT DEALING WITH AN AUTHOR OF IMPARTIALITY OR HONESTY…JUST EVALUATING THE PRESENTATION SHOUTS ‘INTERNAL AGENDA’ WITHOUT EVEN-HANDEDNESS. THESE ISSUES ARE OFFERED TO THE READER ON A SENSATIONALIST ICE AND MALICIOUS BASIS….EVEN SETTING ASIDE MY SPIRITUAL CONCERNS….EVALUATING THE INFORMATION ON JUST A HISTORICAL AND INTELLECTUAL LEVEL..( SIMPLE LOGIC ) ….IT DOESN’T PASS ELEMENTARY MUSTER. AND IF ANYONE JUDGES THE ARTICLE WITH A RUDIMENTARY UNDERSTANDING OF RHETORICAL DEVICES AND TECHNIQUES….THE PRESENTATION IS ABHORRENT TO HONEST INQUIRY…. CONSIDERING THE AUTHORS INTEGRITY— ON A SCALE OF ONE TO TEN—-THEY DON’T EVEN RATE A TWO…..ANY REAL QUESTIONS. Email 7jimij7@gmail.com……..jiimij
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Whoa, tone it down yeller. All caps is not a lifestyle choice you should be making.
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Jim, you might want to read http://www.cesletter.com
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I am a 65 year old atheist who was born into Mormonism.
My parents were both born and raised in Utah, they were ‘free thinkers’ open minded, and not especially religious. They were religious enough to have me baptized when I was eight.
Even as an eight year old though I knew LDS beliefs were a lie, because I have half a brain.
I quit going to church by age ten and was excommunicated by age 27 when I declined a demand to rejoin the church and start tithing or sign a disfellowship document… I had made the mistake of telling a zealous Mormon-convert co-worker that I used to be Mormon.
There’s no need for me to repeat the information in the article, history is history, facts are facts.
American Indians have absolutely no genetic link to the Middle East.
Joseph Smith was a con man, court records confirm this. This business about Golden Plates and prophets is absolute nonsense, pure BS.
The BofM is a plagiarized poorly written fantasy history, the article you were offended by is 100% correct.
I am sorry you were duped by these hucksters.
Good luck to you.
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STOP YELLING.
Instead of simply stating that they are wrong, why not show evidence to support your argument?
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This is inaccurate. And the fact that your asking for money after insulting mormon beliefs, you tell me who is in the right here? Mormons have more rules than a lot of religions but if you meet a mormon they are almost always very happy and positive, they don’t do drugs, they don’t dress like “sluts”, they don’t watch porn, they don’t cuss (some do but it’s really hard not too, even then they rarely do it.) that is just a little of what Mormons don’t do.
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Utah has the highest use of prescription anti depressants . Get the facts. Not as happy as you think. Highest rate of teenage suicide. Highest amount of pornagraphy prescriptions online. Should I go on?
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yes we have alot of beliefs but were not forced to those things, its just we chose not to. we call it free agency
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This is actually very accurate sir. Please do some research as it makes you look very uneducated and just silly to state what you have. If you have information that refutes what the author has written then please enlighten us. Ive got a question for you. Exactly where did the book of mormon take place? Not even a General Authority can tell you that.
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Just as Tom says, antidepressants and porn. Of course you will say there is no evidence. An elephant could step on your toes and you will say no evidence. So, where is the evidence of al the ancient cultures BoM mentions?. Did you check out the evidence that the book of Abraham is a fake? Mormons allways think detractors are questioning their “goodness”. Far from the point. Your religion is a fake, man created by a narcissistic and pathological liar. Now it is followed by narcissistic dummies
Come on man, how can grown adults be so naive? Grow up.
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Most Mormons I know watch porn and then then they repent and then they watch porn again and then they repent watch porn again sporting the Internet studies Utah has the highest rate of porn observation them anywhere in the country
My husband is a bishop and I was really society president when the DNA studies came out I love the church because President and play said even on a YouTube video it’s DNA of the native Indians is not from Israel then Joseph Smith called the biggest hoax on the Americans and he is nothing but a fraud so I am taking it from President Hinckley
DNA studies prove that the Indians arm from Mongolia
The church also finally admitted that Joseph Smith faked the translations of the Egyptian papers
We were con for over 40 years and hundreds of our neighbors and family members have now left the church
I don’t feel stupid because people are frauded all the time
They are tricked into investments and everything so why not open your minds to the truth instead of backing up a lot so you don’t feel stupid
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The key is not to do drug and smile all the time, not to believe something that is obviously not true. I would rather not believe at all. The truth is that Mormons to drink, use drugs, and I am not sure about how they dress at home. I am all the things a Mormon is except the belief of the facts that the cult is really brainwashing of children and fear of leaving despite that they too, find error in the cult.
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Right. . . as compared to the Catholics who eat Jesus and Hindus who worship an elephant and Protestants who believe all land animals fit in a boat made by one guy. Mormons are the only screwballs.
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this is an old post I know this, but catholic believe that jesus gave up his body and blood for our sins..all christian religions believe this…christian is latin for follower of christ…Judaism does not do this because they are still waiting for the first coming of christ, And all of the aforementioned religions…morman, catholic,protestants. jewish…all believe in Noah’s ark…I do not agree with Mormonism personally but come on….I feel like these are basic things that a child in a kindergarten bible school would know.
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These two authors are so far off in their interpreting of Mormon beliefs it would be hilarious if it wasnt so pathetic. It is utterly ridiculous what they have stated. You got to ask yourself: why have these two put so much time into denouncing the Mormon faith? I have been a member for 38 years. It is a beautiful faith, Pure, simple and very open to any questions anyone might have. Obviously these two never went to the source.
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May I suggest that you do a little research of Morman History? The author of this article has clearly done unbiased research. Im not saying just believe what he wrote, im saying investigate it yourself. To be quite honest they are accurate in their claims and by you ranting against them makes you look terribly uneducated on the very thing your ranting about. Ive been LDS for 30+ years, served a mission, and was married in the temple. I will tell you that nothing this author wrote is false. Do some research please.
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This article is the biggest load of lies I’ve ever seen, who ever wrote this is really inacurite and as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later Day saints I am highly offended by your ignorance and stupidity!
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Please do some research yourself and when your done I promise not to say I told you so. The author of this post has clearly done their due dilligence and researched the history of your church. It is you who sounds very stupid as you couldnt possibly have looked into the authors claims, otherwise you would agree with the author.
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I love how you show your beliefs, but religion isn’t there just to raise your morals. Some people actually are happier due to religion or Mormonism in this case. Wether it’s true or not is not anyones call, but if that’s your source of happiness, so be it.
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Er, Mormons have their own rather large universities where girls study homemaking or teaching in prep for eternal marriage as first wife.
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My Father and an associate of his spent an entire evening arguing whether men evolved from primates. The next day, two exhausted individuals vehemently maintained their own individual biases. I happen to be a 50+ year Happy Mormon; and i didn’t join until I was 30
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Well, I found many lies in this article. I will only mention a couple, For one, Brigham Young and all the Prophets including Joseph Smith always taught to find out for ourselves. Not to believe because of their beliefs but learn for ourselves. And that is exactly what I have done all my life. I have While Emma did not like plural marriage that was not the reason she did not follow the Saints either. She had to care for Lucy and she too was broken hearted has her husband, whom she dearly loved, was now gone. She didn’t have much purpose after that.
She did not stay behind to join the reorganized church because it wasn’t even in existence until her young son grew up and started it. Emma maintained her testimony in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints until the day she died as her daughter tells her story.
Another lie is that Emma and Joseph dressed in black having a black horse and having a mystic ritual is just a plain out right lie. They dressed in black because that were being watched. Believe it or not some men did think that Joseph might have found something of worth as in gold so Emma and Joseph had to go quietly and in dark clothing as not to be seen. That was the night they were able to get the plates.
Interestingly enough, other experts outside the Church have said that this book reads as it would in the their own language in the near east.
The bottom line is, you study the religion not the anti religion. Usually anti Mormons are the worst because for the most part they have been excommunicated so they hate the Church. What do you expect from them.
My mother was LDS and my daddy was Baptist. I didn’t even go to the LDS Church as a youngster at all. My mother and her people never ever said one word about my not going. Never!! They let me choose for myself. In fact I think they were surprised to know I started attending the Church when I was 20 years old.
Your article said many, many lies which isn’t worth my time to explain nor do I need to explain. I will say, when a member of the Church fights against the Church they are excommunicated because they obviously hate the Church and so they should be excommunicated.
I am so very, very grateful I belong to this beautiful, loving Church. I would gladly give my life for it. It is the very breath I breathe. And it saddens me to see so many untruths spoken of it. In the end you will know. This is the Church of Jesus Christ. The only living Church on the today. We have a living Prophet and 12 apostles who receive revelation from the Lord.
I have met many of them and you could never ever find anything evil about these men. Go meet them yourself and you will find the Church very different than you had thought.
These men are retired heart surgeons, judges, lawyers, scientist, among many other honorable vocations. They have given up their high paying vocations for the rest of their lives in service to the Church. You try and keep up with them. Just try.
My name is Mary Frank Skaggs Ralls and I am thankful to be a member of the Mormon Church!!!
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As a former Mormon descended from first, second, third, fourth, and fifth-generation Mormons: Agreed. BUT no more wacky than Judaism. No more wacky than Islam. No more wacky than Catholicism. No more wacky than Hinduism. No more wacky than some things masking as atheism out there like addiction to the State and a belief in the all-powerful accredited university that magical confers rational thought upon completion of accredited degrees. Uh huh.
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No argument there. :)
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Hello Mark,
I just read your post with interest and thought you would like to know that according to a 2017 study by the Pew Research Center. Mormons with higher education were found to be religious. Here are the findings: “Among Mormons, those who are more highly educated are not simply as religious as those with less education – Mormons with college experience are more religiously observant, on average, than Mormons with less education. Fully 92% of college-educated Mormons are highly religious, as are 91% of Mormons with some college. Among Mormons whose education topped out with high school, however, just 78% score high on the index of religious observance.” I don’t have an extra $10,000 to betcha, but I do have a Master of Science degree.
* “In America, Does More Education Equal Less Religion?”
http://www.pewforum.org/2017/04/26/in-america-does-more-education-equal-less-religion/
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Here is a 12 minute video interview with Richard Dawkins March 25th on MSNBC. He discusses the following questions:
Does a politician’s private religious beliefs effect public policy? If a citizen has the right to question their lawmaker’s political opinions, should they also be able to question their outlook on religion?
http://video.msnbc.msn.com/up-with-chris-hayes/46848311#46848311
I didn’t watch the presidential debate but Stephen Colbert’s mocking of Mitt’s creepy half-smile reminded me of the Mormon fundamentalist slogan, “keep sweet”. It’s what abused girls and women are told to do by their male masters. Apparently, Romney refused to go on The View because he was afraid to confront “sharp-tongued” women who are free to speak their minds and challenge male authority. I think the patriarchal, sexist attitudes of Mormons, the kind of attitude that tells children to keep sweet no matter how much they are abused and denied their rights, played some part in the Elizabeth Smart case. I think the indoctrination she received in the mainstream Mormon church, especially absolute obedience to authority, made her easy prey for the Mormon fundamentalist who kidnapped and assaulted her, using the same religious dogma to enslave her.
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Thanks, Perry. Good information! I agree–the “keep sweet” mantra is creepy.
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Another thought just occurred to me regarding the power that “obey your elders” has over people raised in certain cultures. A Korean-American speed skater recently admitted to tampering with an opponents skates. In his apology he mentioned the difficulty of disobeying an elder:
“He asked me in English … ‘mess up the blades,’” Cho said of his coach’s instructions. “Later he made the same request in Korean, he made it twice. He was not only coming to me as my coach but as a Korean elder. In the Korean culture, that’s very difficult to deny. I said I’d do it.” http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/us-speedskater-cho-truly-sorry-for-tampering-with-canadians-skates/article4591261/
In the Smart case, in my opinion, it was also culture that made it difficult for her to disobey a person who she could have easily seen as her elder, quoting the same scriptures her parents and church leaders did.
Of all the beliefs you list in this article, I think the last one, Lying for the Lord is Morally Acceptable, is the most dangerous. I practiced a similar doctrine for many years in the Children of God/Family International cult, which they called Deceivers Yet True, based on specific scriptures. see: http://www.exfamily.org/cgi-bin/gf.pl?fmt=dyn&t=articles&m=1&s=&r=art/exmem/family_policy_on_lying.shtml
Here’s an excerpt:
As you will see in this detailed article, The Family has gone to great lengths to define what is a “lie,” when it is permissible to lie, and the justification for lying. Consider these claims in Berg’s writing, Deceivers, Yet True!, letter number 1248, paragraphs 4 & 5:
“The Lord & His Prophets frequently used deceit & sometimes outright lies, believe it or not, to accomplish God’s purpose. The law is the standard, but there are always exceptions to the rules, particularly if God’s the One Who makes the exceptions! God Himself is going to lie to them & deceive them because they refused the truth … God lied to them & deceived them & deluded them & damned them! What better proof can you have than that?—God sometimes uses lies!”
The title of Berg’s letter, Deceivers, Yet True! captures The Family’s thinking on lying. In fact, the words “deceivers, yet true,” are often quoted among Family members as a catch phrase meaning “condoned lying.” This expression is taken from the King James Version of the Bible, 2Corinthians 6:8, where the Apostle Paul says:
“By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true.”
Not bothering to read the entire passage in context to understand the meaning of these last five words, Berg quoted them as authorization to deceive to “accomplish God’s purpose.”
Let’s look at 2 Corinthians 6:8 in a different translation, the New International Version:
“Through glory and dishonour, bad report and good report; genuine, yet regarded as imposters.”
To honest readers, the meaning is clear. Paul was saying that he was genuine and had integrity, despite the fact that some regarded him as not genuine. Berg, however, insisted that this verse gave The Family free license to use deception as long as hey remained true in their hearts. …
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It seems like when you have a hierarchical patriarchal closed system, similar characteristics emerge. A self-protective culture and rules get baked into sacred texts, and authorities use them to advance the mission even at the expense of individual members.
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“keep sweet” been LDS for along time and never herd that.
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Scott, if you look at my original comment at the top of this thread you will see that I wrote:
“…the Mormon fundamentalist slogan, “keep sweet”.” http://flds101.blogspot.ca/2008/05/flds-101-keep-sweet.html
So, if you were LDS and not FLDS then that’s probably why you wouldn’t have heard the term. “Keep Sweet” is also the title of a book by a survivor of Mormon fundamentalism. http://www.childbrides.org/Book_Keep_Sweet.html
Also, I just learned that the fundamentalist Twelve Tribes also use that term “keep sweet”. They are well known for corporal punishment of children and recently the German authorities raided a commune and removed dozens of children. An American member of that group defending their practices mentioned that term when speaking to a reporter. See:
http://religiouschildabuse.blogspot.ca/2011/05/twelve-tribes-continue-to-reject-cult.html?showComment=1378746103886#c8580195888450241978
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As a former 3rd gen Mormon I could never understand why Mitt’s religion wasn’t held up to scrutiny during the elections. If you’re not attending church three or four times a week, perhaps you don’t know that a core belief that is constantly chattered in the past decade is that:
1: The Last Days are upon us.
2: These Last Days will commence when the Middle East is in flaming ruins.
3: The flaming ruins will be brought about by the nation that birthed the One True Religion of God (Mormonism).
4: Once the Middle East has been completely annihilated by the U.S., Jesus will return to earth and take all the Mormons home to the planet Kolob. For a thousand years Mormons will work on the earth to baptize its entire population, deceased and all, and those who accept baptism will return to Kolob to live with Jesus and the Mormons. And of course, all their plural wives because apparently more women fall for Mormonism than do men.
To me, this was a tremendously dangerous man to be talking of putting in the White House. Every Mormon knows that each day Mitt opens his day on the phone with the Prophet, Thomas S. Monson, in prayer and instruction! That instruction comes and is firmly and promptly obeyed, throughout each and every day.
The true President of the United States this day could have been the man who authored and funded the Prop 8 fight in California – from several states away.
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You obviously are ignorant to many things taught to Mormons. First of all much of what we believe about the last days is brought out in the book of Revelations.
When the first seal is opened in the beginning verses of Revelation 6, there is shown to John an important occurrence from the first thousand years after the Fall. When the second seal is opened in the subsequent verses, John is shown something about the second thousand years. And so on through the first four seals. The fifth seal information presented to John represents both a time period and some events of which John knew a great deal. The Apostle is shown a representation of those who “were slain for the word of God” after the opening of the fifth seal. (Rev. 6:9)
For us, however, it is not until the sixth seal is opened (beginning at Rev. 6:12) that we begin to deal with events yet to occur. The sixth seal covers the sixth thousand year period, which generally would be about 1000 A.D. to 2000 A.D.
When we come to Revelation 8, we begin to read of the seventh seal, or the seventh thousand years of the earth’s temporal existence. During the early part of this period is when judgments come upon the earth in a final attempt to turn mankind’s heart to God; it will be sometime early in this period—how early is unspecified—when at last the earth will be cleansed, Christ will return, and the Millennium will begin.
We do believe the last days are upon. We believe that it will commence in the House of Judah, or in Jerusalem. The earth will be baptized by fire, but not literal fire, only fire referring to the Spirit of God (i.e. a man must be born of water and the spirit; the earth was born of water with Noah and then it will be cleansed with fire, or the spirit). Furthermore Kolob is only a place that is believed to be near God in our galaxy, however that is not where God lives; also the millenium will happen where we baptize those who did not get the chance then we will all have the chance to live with God again.
Once again you are ignorant to what we believe. Go to https://www.lds.org/?lang=eng to learn more.
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I don’t know why everyone thinks that Mormon men have many wives. I find this Offensive to my religion, And I don’t know why people can’t keep their comments about LDS to themselves.
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Wasn’t Mr. Romney also supposed to be a sort of “White Knight” or superhero prophesied by Joseph Smith? And yes, I thought it was odd that his religion was suddenly “mainstream” and totally accepted by the GOP, whereas years ago while attending a fundie evangelical church I was taught that Mormonism is a cult and NOT “real Christianity.” http://www.december212012.com/articles/religion/2012-%20White-Horse%20-Prophecy.htm
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Rigggghhhhhttt not a gross generalization at all. . . .
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What a out right lie. The Church is not sexist one bit. I have had so many callings in the Church I have had to say no. Women are highly regarded and I have never been abused. If anyone had ever tried I would pick up the heaviest thing I could find and hit as hard as I could. We are very strong women.
You find bullies in all churches. There are evil men everywhere. In our Church they get excommunicated if they hurt or abuse anyone!!!
I have been married for 49 years and I tell you one thing if my husband even looked like he was going to push me around, you can be sure he would learn very quickly, it ain’t happening.
You folks are just crazy. Use your brain. We don’t talk about other religions and how their male leaders abuse them and there are many faith that are lead by just men.
Sad, you all have nothing else better to talk about. That is just plain sad!!!
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Mary Frank Ralls, you are apparently unaware of the Christian Patriarchy Movement. Maybe this article and the ones at the end of it will open your eyes to sexism in Christian churches. https://religiouschildabuse.blogspot.ca/2011/01/christian-patriarchy-movements.html
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Mormons’ appearance of being cheerful and nice and their conflict avoidance may also be rooted in the church’s expectation of perfection. They don’t want others to see any cracks. In many wards, esp. in heavy Mormon areas, there is an unspoken competition to see who can appear to be the most righteous.
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I don’t think the idea of being black equates a curse is strictly Mormon. My grandfather believed that black skin was the mark of Cain and he was Church of God.
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Similar beliefs were pretty prevalent in the “old days.” I think that sort of racist teaching was one way of justifying the practice of: a) keeping blacks as slaves, and later b) considering them as second class people.
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Yes, I think it was the endemic thinking at the time, which I never did understand.
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You are more correct than you know. In the days where the Mormon church is accused of espousing slavery virtually every other church did the same. Your Grandfather’s church and my Grandfather’s Lutheran church as well.
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Correct! Many Protestant churches back in JS’s day believed the curse of Cain had to do with skin color.
That’s not the problem. The problem is the misinterpretation of those verses by certain churches. The funny thing is Joseph Smiths ignorance of the misinterpretation (being the socalled Prophet of God) and claiming it all came from God Himself. They created a whole doctrine around it and then some!!
The other funny thing was how it was renounced. It was renounced from government pressure and they turned it into a “revelation”. However revelations of this magnitude are suppose to be inserted as scripture. Instead they simply edited their “scriptures” and created doublespeak and changed its meaning to soften the embarrassing doctrine. They simply marketed themselves of their obvious man-made doctrine.
By the way the revelation the prophet received regarding rhis should have been considered scripture and added to the Mornon quad. Instead a memo went out. Lol!
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Reblogged this on Woosh. and commented:
I personally don’t know any Mormons, though according to google there is a strong LDS Church in the Philippines. This article has proven once again that there are simply some things about organized religion that I will never understand.
The comments are also worth reading and are as informative as the article itself.
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Bat crap crazy by bat crap crazy for the bat rap crazy from the land of the utterly bat crap crazy ! Humanity is grossly over rated.
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this is the 21st century and we still worry about people’s religion?
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When they hold such ridiculous ideas that dark skin is a curse from god, then yes, we worry.
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In the Old Testament those who “mixed” race would be killed. However once Jesus Christ came to the earth that doctrine was done away with. Such as how the Law of Moses was done away with once Jesus came. Furthermore when the LDS church did not allow men who were colored to obtain the priesthood it was due to the fact that the Lord had not told the Prophet of our church to allow it at that time. Although it may seem like segregating unlike other churches we did not have separate meeting houses for each color. I personally know that we are allowed to mix race and I also know that “the dark skin thing” is not taught in doctrine, because my mom is white and my dad is black and I am a Mormon.
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It was taught in doctrine until very recently. Can a perfect god change his mind on something so profoundly immoral? And why would he happen to do so just at the time that the broader culture was shifting to recognize the immorality of racism? (And why would he follow the pack rather than leading?)
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First and foremost, stick to the Hebrew scripture, go to a good rabbi, if you our not Jewish that you know of, become a noahide/ Ger. Please for your spiritual soul, get away from any thing that takes you away from Torah. Please get help.
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2014 calling. Ever heard of ISIS? Or Charles Manson? How about the religious people in Tokyo Japan, a dooms day religion (just like many Christian cults, including Mormonism) that attacked people in a subway with nerve gas?
Yes, some people are very concerned with religion and it’s effects on society.
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Very informative article. Thanks, Tony
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Makes more sense America’s foreign policy.
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I’m a bit alarmed at one glaring inaccuracy in this and wonder what it implies for the thoroughness of the authors’ research. Fawn Brodie’s ground-breaking biography of Joseph Smith is entitled “No Man KNows My History”, not “No Man Knows My Name”. If such an easily checkable detail as that is missed what else are the authors missing or mistaken about?
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Embarrassing. the “knows my name” phrase comes from a song lyric that got swapped in during the writing process. I myself worry constantly about what else I may have missed. Thank you!
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I am LDS and i have never heard the term “keep sweet”. One funny term we use is “Be Good”.
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Scott, read mark 10:18 before you say anything is ‘good’
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Perry,
I have a few problems with your ‘cultural’ conclusion on both genetics and behavioural psychological factual grounds.
Research has shown that ‘culture’ (conditioning/ environment ) constitutes varying amounts of the personality estimated between 25- 60%. The remaining is attributed to genetics i.e. a propensity. Again this varies from individual to individual.
I’d also point out that Korean culture is also Bigger on honesty etc.
In essence I think the skater’s actions were probably motivated by several separate factors that were largely unique to him . Therefore I have issues with the broad brush stroke painting of the act as simply a manifestation of Korean Culture. I think your conclusion is way too simplistic (stereotyping) and potentially betrays your cultural input (bias).
On an anthropological level. It is nonsense to discuss a culture in term of it’s attributes without some reference to the the context…
Culture in my mind it is in fact a manifestation ( human response over time to solving real environmental issues) what it isn’t is a set of fixed attributes in isolation to it’s context.
i.e. In one of Australian aboriginal cultures (yes there were many) there were strict taboos to marrying into one’s own totem ( often an animal) simply put it was a way of stopping inbreeding.
In PNG certain tribes has particular Taboo’s of hunting in certain parts of the jungle at a certain time of the year. To enforce it they believed that malicious spirits abounded there at that time.The reality was this part and time coincided with the breeding season. In one clan the tribes made major decisions by the whole tribe even women yet their role was by some feminist models sexist in that men had duties and women had duties… every person knew and accepted their place in the tribe and drew their identity (place in the universe) from both hierarchy in our sense was a mystery to them. Primitive culture ? because they were shamanistic? We could learn some from them.
Was their life utopian …no it was short and brutal by our standards. The point I’m making is that it isn’t that simple and never is. Such stereotyping is the plinth on which prejudices are cobbled together.
PS I am not a professional and claim no special expertise. I do claim to have spent my formative childhood living among a couple of the PNG tribes (due to my parent’s jobs) and contact with many more. I was fluent in 2 of the 800+ languages, now a days not so much.
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i’ll admit, i didn’t take the time to read the whole post. but i did read each of the main twelve points. as a returned missionary for the lds church, none of the points you brought up are things the church wants to hide at all, with the exception of #3 (which is just straight up false, the church doesn’t believe dark skin is a sign of God’s curse. maybe random weirdo members do, but there are random weirdos in every religion that believe racist crap, but the point is that nowhere in church doctrine is this taught officially).
i literally gave up gum and snowboarding and dating and the internet for 18 months knocking on stranger’s doors begging anyone who would listen to take time out of their lives trying to SHARE everything you just claimed we are trying to hide. i have sacrificed too much in the name of sharing everything you just claimed we are hiding to not leave a comment letting you know that you are ill-informed. as a writer, i can’t think of any worse crime to commit. as as fellow writer, i’m even going so far as to ask you to revert this post to a draft until you’ve researched enough to share accurate info. if you are only posting to collect views and comments then i fully expect this comment to be deleted and ignored.
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“i literally gave up gum and snowboarding and dating and the internet for 18 months knocking on stranger’s doors begging anyone who would listen to take time out of their lives trying to SHARE everything you just claimed we are trying to hide.”
That’s why people don’t like you guys. That’s rude and impolite to pretend to knock on a stranger’s door and that they have to give you their time for nothing. It is different from culture to culture but where I live the least you’d get is the door slammed on your face for such conduct… which takes me to the next thing:
“i have sacrificed too much”
If it was your choice, it’s basically your problem. If anyone demanded it from you against your will then they’re the problem. If you have a problem with being a mormon and the things the mormon church demands from you then you should reconsider your affiliation with them. IT IS THAT EASY.
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I have heard the dark skin thing taught. It wasn’t specifically discussed but it is definitely in the doctrine.
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Joseph Smith “Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species and put them on a national equalization.” (History of the Church, Vol. 5, pp. 218-19.)
Brigham Young, 2nd President of the Church
“Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Volume 10, page 110.)
You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, un- comely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race – that they should be the “servant of servants;” and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, [p.291] and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam’s children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion. – (Journal of Discourses 7:290-291, October 9, 1859)
“You may inquire of the intelligent of the world whether they can tell why the aborigines of this country are dark, loathsome, ignorant, and sunken into the depths of degradation …When the Lord has a people, he makes covenants with them and gives unto them promises: then, if they transgress his law, change his ordinances, and break his covenants he has made with them, he will put a mark upon them, as in the case of the Lamanites and other portions of the house of Israel; but by-and-by they will become a white and delightsome people” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 7:336).
It is not the prerogative of the President of the United States to meddle with this matter, and Congress is not allowed, according to the [p.40] Constitution, to legislate upon it. If Utah was admitted into the Union as a sovereign State, and we chose to introduce slavery here, it is not their business to meddle with it; and even if we treated our slaves in an oppressive manner, it is still none of their business and they ought not to meddle with it. Journal of Discourses 4:39-40 (Aug 31, 1856)
“In our first settlement in Missouri, it was said by our enemies that we intended to tamper with the slaves, not that we had any idea of the kind, for such a thing never entered our minds. We knew that the children of Ham were to be the “servant of servants,” and no power under heaven could hinder it, so long as the Lord would permit them to welter under the curse and those were known to be our religious views concerning them.” (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 172).
John Taylor, 3rd President of the Church
“And after the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham’s wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God;…”
Journal of Discourses, Vol. 22, page 304
Wilford Woodruff, 4th President of the Church
“And if any man mingle his seed with the seed of Cain the only way he could get rid of it or have Salvation would be to come forward and have his head cut off and spill his blood upon the ground- it would also take the life of his children.”
(Wilford Woodruff Journal)
Apostle Orson Hyde
The belief that blacks were less valiant in the pre-existence may have been started by Orson Hyde, an original member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. This is the earliest statement we are aware of that discusses this:
At the time the devil was cast out of heaven, there were .some spirits that did not know who had the authority, whether God or the devil. They consequently did not take a very active part on either side, but rather thought the devil had been abused, and considered he had rather the best claim to the government.
These spirits were not considered bad enough to be cast down to hell, and never have bodies ; neither were they considered worthy of an honourable body on this earth : but it came to pass that Ham, the son of Noah, saw the nakedness of his father while he lay drunk in his tent, and he with ” wicked joy,” ran like Rigdon, and made the wonderful disclosure to his brethren ; while Shem and Japheth took a garment, with pity and compassion, laid it upon their shoulders—went backwards and covered their father, and saw not his nakedness. The joy of the first was to expose—that of the second was to cover the unseemliness of their father. The conduct of the former brought the curse of slavery upon him, while that of the latter secured blessings, jurisdiction, power and dominion. Here was the beginning of blessing and cursing in the family of Noah, and here also is the cause of both. Canaan, the son of Ham, received the curse ; for Noah wished to place the curse as remote from himself as possible. He therefore placed it upon his grandson instead of his son.
Now, it would seem cruel to force pure celestial spirits into the world through the lineage of Canaan that had been cursed. This would be ill appropriate, putting the precious and vile together. But those spirits in heaven that rather lent an influence to the devil, thinking he had a little the best right to govern, but did not take a very active part any way were required to come into the world and take bodies in the accursed lineage of Canaan ; and hence the negro or African race. Now, therefore, all those who are halting concerning who has the right to govern had better look at the fate of their brethren that have gone before them, and take warning in time
lest they learn obedience by the things which they suffer. ” Choose ye this day whom you will serve.” These things are among the mysteries of the kingdom, and I have told them, not by constraint or by commandment, but by permission.
(SPEECH OF ELDER ORSON HYDE, DELIVERED BEFORE THE HIGH PRIESTS’ QUORUM, IN NAUVOO, APRIL 21th, 1845 …, p. 30)
Joseph Fielding Smith, President of the Church
“Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning…. we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our negro brethren, for they are our brethren-children of God-not withstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness. ” The Way to Perfection, pages 101-102. http://www.barncow.com/curseofcain/
“There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we once had an estate before we came here, and were obedient, more or less, to the laws that were given us there. Those who were faithful in all things there received greater blessings here, and those who were not faithful received less.” (Doctrines of Salvation, p. 61)
“I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. “Darkies” are wonderful people, and they have their place in our church.” Look magazine, October 22, 1963, page 79.
President Brigham Young, answering a question put to him by Elder Lorenzo D. Young in a meeting held December 25 , 1869, in Salt Lake City, said that Joseph Smith had declared that the Negroes were not neutral in heaven, for all the spirits took sides, but the posterity of Cain are black because he (Cain) committed murder.” The Way to Perfection, pages 105-106.
“That negro race, for instance, have been placed under restrictions because of their attitude in the world of spirits, few will doubt. It cannot be looked upon as just that they should be deprived of the power of the Priesthood without it being a punishment for some act, or acts, performed before they were born.” The Way to Perfection, page 43.
“Ham, through Egyptus, continued the curse which was placed upon the seed of Cain. Because of that curse this dark race was separated and isolated from all the rest of Adam’s posterity before the flood, and since that time the same condition has continued, and they have been ‘despised among all people.’ This doctrine did not originate with President Brigham Young but was taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith …. we all know it is due to his teachings that the negro today is barred from the Priesthood.” The Way to Perfection, pages 110-111.
Spencer W. Kimball, 12th President of the Church
“The day of the Lamanites in nigh. For years they have been growing delightsome… The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation…There was the doctor in a Utah city who for two years had had an Indian boy in his home who stated that he was some shades lighter than the younger brother just coming into the program from the reservation. These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness. Spencer W. Kimball; The Improvement Era, Dec. 1960, p. 923)
Apostle Bruce R. McConkie
“Negroes in this life are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty. (Abra. 1:20-27.) The gospel message of salvation is not carried affirmatively to them… negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man’s origin. It is the Lord’s doing, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the lack of Spiritual valiance of those concerned in their first estate.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, pp. 527-528)
Apostle Mark E. Petersen:
“God has commanded Israel not to intermarry. To go against this commandment of God would be in sin. Those who willfully sin with their eyes open to this wrong will not be surprised to find that they will be separated from the presence of God in the world to come. This is spiritual death.
“The reason that one would lose his blessings by marrying a Negro is due to the restriction placed upon them. “No person having the least particle of Negro blood can hold the Priesthood” (Brigham Young). It does not matter if they are one-sixth Negro or one-hundred and sixth, the curse of no Priesthood is the same. If an individual who is entitled to the Priesthood marries a Negro, the Lord has decreed that only spirits who are not eligible for the Priesthood will come to that marriage as children. To intermarry with a Negro is to forfeit a “Nation of Priesthood holders.
“The discussion on civil rights, especially over the last 20 years, has drawn some very sharp lines. It has blinded the thinking of some of our own people, I believe. They have allowed their political affiliations to color their thinking to some extent, and then, of course, they have been persuaded by some of the arguments that have been put forth.We who teach in the Church certainly must have our feet on the ground and not to be led astray by the philosophies of men on this subject.
“I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the Negro is after. He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn’t just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn’t that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the Negro seeks absorption with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage. That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feelings to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for Negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, ‘First we pity, then endure, then embrace’.
“Now let’s talk about segregation again for a few moments. Was segregation a wrong principle? When the Lord chose the nations to which the spirits were to come, determining that some would be Japanese and some would be Chinese and some Negroes and some Americans, He engaged in an act of segregation.
“When he told Enoch not preach the gospel to the descendants of Cain who were black, the Lord engaged in segregation. When He cursed the descendants of Cain as to the Priesthood, He engaged in segregation.
“Who placed the Negroes originally in darkest Africa? Was it some man, or was it God? And when He placed them there, He segregated them.
“The Lord segregated the people both as to blood and place of residence. At least in the cases of the Lamanites and the Negro we have the definite word of the Lord Himself that he placed a dark skin upon them as a curse — as a punishment and as a sign to all others. He forbade intermarriage with them under threat of extension of the curse. And He certainly segregated the descendants of Cain when He cursed the Negro as to the Priesthood, and drew an absolute line. You may even say He dropped an Iron curtain there.
“Now we are generous with the Negro. We are willing that the Negro have the highest education. I would be willing to let every Negro drive a Cadillac if they could afford it. I would be willing that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the world. But let them enjoy these things among themselves. I think the Lord segregated the Negro and who is man to change that segregation? It reminds me of the scripture on marriage, ‘what God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.’ Only here we have the reverse of the thing – what God hath separated, let not man bring together again.
“Think of the Negro, cursed as to the priesthood.This Negro, who, in the pre-existence lived the type of life which justified the Lord in sending him to the earth in their lineage of Cain with a black skin, and possibly being born in darkest Africa–if that Negro is willing when he hears the gospel to accept it, he may have many of the blessings of the gospel. In spite of all he did in the pre-existent life, the Lord is willing, if the Negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost. If that Negro is faithful all his days, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory.” (Apostle Mark E. Peterson, Race Problems – As They Affect The Church, Convention of Teachers of Religion on the College Level, Brigham Young University, Provo, Utah, August 27, 1954) Link to Talk
Apostle George F. Richards (spoken in conference)
Conference Reports, CR April 1939, Second Day-Morning Meeting: Elder George F. Richards
“The negro is an unfortunate man. He has been given a black skin….But that is as nothing compared with that greater handicap that he is not permitted to receive the Priesthood and the ordinances of the temple, necessary to prepare men and women to enter into and enjoy a fulness of glory in the celestial kingdom….What is the reason for this condition, we ask, and I find it to my satisfaction to think that as spirit children of our Eternal Father they were not valiant in the fight. We are told that Michael and his angels fought, and we understand that we stood with Christ our Lord, on the platform, “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.” I cannot conceive our Father consigning his children to a condition such as that of the negro race, if they had been valiant in the spirit world in that war in heaven. Neither could they have been a part of those who rebelled and were cast down, for the latter had not the privilege of tabernacling in the flesh. Somewhere along the line were these spirits, indifferent perhaps, and possibly neutral in the war. We have no definite knowledge concerning this. But I learn this lesson from it, brethren and sisters, and I believe we all should, that it does not pay in religious matters, matters that pertain to our eternal salvation, to be indifferent, neutral, or lukewarm
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Thomas Paine wrote, “What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods;….”
This quote and your post helps me understand how anyone could believe such things. I marvel at the presumptive arrogance it must take for someone to knock on doors and tell another intelligent (I hope) person that their creed or beliefs is better than the ones they hold. As someone who determined early in life that all super natural belief was impossible to know and wishful thinking, I find all religions disappointing to say the least. It seems like so much silliness. Angels, gold tablets you lose, magic underwear, you must admit it is far-fetched. Add to that the fact that Smith was convicted of fraud and LDS looks like an epidemic of contagious insanity. If you read “Under the Banner of Heaven” by Jon Krakauer, you will discover that it wasn’t always a benign case.
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also, as a self-described book of mormon scholar and life-long devout latter-day saint, i’d love to help you learn more accurate facts about correct church beliefs and official/unofficial doctrines. feel free to reach out: case.kelli@gmail.com
also, lds.org and mormon.org are good places to receive accurate information. happy blogging!
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Where is the garden of Eden? Joseph Smith said it is in Missouri while the Book of Moses in the PGP states that it is the mideast of the old world
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We don’t know. It’s guarded by Angels so that man can’t get in. Adam-ondi-adman is in Missouri(Were he gathered his children and such)
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I remember watching a news story on television, the facts of which I was personally familiar with, since it occurred in my neighborhood. I was amazed at how such a simple, straightforward story could be so twisted. I assume it was misrepresented for the purpose of increasing the interest of the viewers. The same thing has happened here. If you want to learn about what Mormon’s believe, ask a Mormon! This article was obviously written to shock, rather than reveal truth.
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I’m an ex-Mormon and I find this post to be blatant yellow journalism. Do Mormons have some weird beliefs? Yep. Do other Christians have some weird beliefs? Yep. All religions sound crazy when you’re not fully educated in them. This article was SO clearly written with an anti-Mormon bias, to the point that I was going, “Blatantly false, sensationalism, blatantly false, etc.” As I said, I left the church, but for the life of me, I can’t understand people who claim to know everything about members of the LDS church and claim that they are all crazy and evil, or naive followers who have been duped by an evil brainwashing cult. The LDS church is a very wholesome religion; I don’t believe it, but many VERY intelligent people that I love and respect do. So let’s tone down the ignorance and hatred, please :)
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“All religions sound crazy when you’re not fully educated in them.”
According to the words ascribed to the mythical Jesus, whom Mormons apparently believe in, you have to become as a little child to enter the ‘kingdom’of god’. No education necessary, just simple unquestioning faith. All the rest is just religious artifice used by immoral men (mostly) to control others. And all of it sounds crazy, no matter how shallow or deep my understanding of a particular religion’s dogma is.
I have a very deep understanding of Christianity, as a former believer, and a very shallow understanding of Hinduism, yet both seem utterly crazy to me.
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One has to become like a child in almost any Xian religious belief. As Spong said, “The Church doesn’t want people to grow up, because you can’t control grown ups.” in his video interview concerning Hell. I too am a former believer and I know all too well about this “Heavenly Father” who is “Father to the fatherless” etc etc.
However, as you said, it really doesn’t take much education, just brainwashing, esp from birth, because brainwashing before the age of 7 is best, just so you can control them for a lifetime and keep them in the fold. Of course, this method isn’t foolproof, obviously.
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Becoming a child does not mean having simple unquestioning faith. Becoming a child involves increasingly becoming more like the savior. It means having a faith that is tempered with experience and that continually looks forward and upward. Being child like to me means being optimistic about the future and hopeful. It also involves recognizing my relationship with God which is a father-son relationship. It also involves what the savior described as being “wise like serpents and harmless as doves…” Continual learning as well as disciplined discipleship is the hallmark of a true disciple of Christ.
I like how the Book of Mormon explains it
“For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.” (Mosiah 3:19)
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There is no reply button to respond to symphonyofdissent, so I’ve submitted it under my previous comment in this thread..
You contradict yourself, sod, when you write that “becoming a child … means having a faith that is tempered with experience”. Children have very little or no experience, so they must rely on the adults around them to teach them the reality of life, how to think critically, and how to separate fact from fiction. The dogma attributed to some guy named Jesus that one must become as a child to enter heaven, can only be understood as a requirement not to question or doubt the dogma, just accept it the same way a child accepts that Santa is real. You can twist the interpretation with your cognitive dissonance, but that doesn’t change that biblical imperative.
The Book of Mormon just makes up things or copies things, just like the Bible. There is a similar scripture in the Bible to the one you quote, which says that the carnal mind is at enmity with God (KJV). Knowledge, learning, questioning, doubting are all bad things according to the Bible. How many children raised in the Mormon faith are allowed to really doubt and question everything they are taught by their parents, teachers and elders? I suspect that most, as in many other denominations, dare not question the dogma, which is how all religions perpetuate themselves.
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Actually we very greatly believe in education. And yes we are told to become as a child, because children are meek, submissive, and lowly in heart. Although our minds and our bodies are constantly growing until we can become like unto a child who is a lover of all people then the Lord may judge us differently. By different I mean that we may not enter the highest degree of the Kingdom Of God because we did not become as a child.
“Search the scriptures — search the revelations which we publish and ask your Heavenly Father, in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, to manifest the truth unto you, and if you do it with an eye single to His glory nothing doubting, He will answer you by the power of His Holy Spirit. You will then know for yourselves and not for another.”
– Joseph Smith
If you heed the council of the Prophet Joseph Smith and intently pray to find if “Mormonism” is not true the Lord will give you the answer.
And if you truly do have and understanding of Christianity then you will know that the LDS religion believes in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and that is what our church is based on.
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As a Mormon, I cannot speak for early leaders whose comments were wrong.
But as an honest person I will recognize
something completely proven. I am disappointed that while the church does so many good things that are never mentioned that we seem to be dishonest about the past. Scared too death of it actually. If you are going to possess to be the true Church then you MUST BE TOTALLY HONEST. I do not believe our Lord ever covered up anything, even when it costs him followers. That , quite frankly is what troubles me so much. Jesus never had to be forced to tell the truth. Even if (and it did) killed Him. To the learned, highly educated leaders of our church
this member of no standing counsels
Just tell the truth, the WHOLE truth and
nothing but the truth. There is no such thing as lying for The Lord. This I do know in the name of Jesus Christ.
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thanks for your honesty. They all were teaching that Adam is God doctrine back then not just Brigham Young
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Everything said in this article can be said of all of the Christian religions and non Christian religions. This article was written by an Evangelical. That should be a red flag right there. Evangelical’s are scared of everything they do not understand. They live in a “black and white” way of thinking world/bubble. The universe scares them because they do not undrstand it. I truly do not know how EV’s function in a world that is NOT black and white. Not everything has answers. There are many shades of grey in the world.
Donna M said: “Every Mormon knows that each day Mitt opens his day on the phone with the Prophet, Thomas S. Monson, in prayer and instruction! That instruction comes and is firmly and promptly obeyed, throughout each and every day.” TOTAL #$^$%#$^&#%^& BS. That is like saying the Pope controlled the White House when Pres. Kennedy was in office. As a former Mormon you sound like you have a huge axe to grind. Every time a new U.S. President is elected the President of the LDS church meets with the new U.S. President, several times during that U.S.President’s time in the White House. As do other Preachers/Pastors/Leaders of other religious denominations. So I guess Pres. Obama calls up all these religious leaders every morning to have prayer and then decides who to follow for the day! HAH!!!
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Actually, the body of this article was written by a retired professor of religion who is Presbyterian ordained and who taught primarily at a Jesuit college.
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MORMONS, AND I HAVE MET MANY, ARE ALMOST ALWAYS SINCERE, INTELLIGENT PEOPLE. THEY APPEAR TO HAVE GOOD FAMILY VALUES AND LOTS AND LOTS OF BEAUTIFUL CHILDREN. I HAVE ATTENDED THEIR CHURCHES ON NUMEROUS OCCASIONS, READ THEIR BOOKS, ETC. WELL-MEANING MORMONS HAVE ASSURED ME THAT THE ONLY REASON THAT I HAVE NOT YET BECOME A MORMON IS BECAUSE I HAVE NOT STUDIED THEIR BELIEFS SUFFICIENTLY. I HAVE NEVER, HOWEVER, HAD EVEN THE LEAST ILLUSION THAT THERE IS ANY TRUTH AT ALL TO BE FOUND WITHIN MORMONISM. THE MORE I STUDY THEIR RELIGION THE MORE I HAVE TO WONDER HOW ANY EVEN SEMI-RATIONAL PERSON CAN BELIEVE SUCH UTTER NONSENSE! JOSEPH SMITH, THE FOUNDING PROPHET OF MORMONISM, A TOTAL SCOUNDREL AND MORALLY BASE INDIVIDUAL, HAS BEEN WHITEWASHED BY MORMONS INTO SOME KIND OF GOD MAN NEARLY IF NOT EQUAL IN SIGNIFICANCE AND HOLINESS TO JESUS CHRIST HIMSELF. MORMONS, FROM MY FIRSTHAND OBSERVATION, ALL BUT WORSHIP THIS REPROBATE.
A STRIKING FEATURE OF MORMON CHURCH SERVICES IS HOW FREQUENTLY THE MEMBERS SAY SOMETHING TO THE EFFECT THAT “I KNOW THAT JOSEPH SMITH WAS A TRUE PROPHET OF GOD AND THAT THIS IS THE ONLY TRUE CHURCH.” THE IMPRESSION LEFT ON ME IS THAT IF THEY WILL JUST KEEP SAYING THIS OFTEN ENOUGH THAT THEY WILL FINALLY BE ABLE TO CONVINCE THEMSELVES AND OTHERS THAT THEY REALLY DO BELIEVE THE THOROUGHLY UNBIBLICAL DOCTRINES OF THEIR CHURCH. I HAVE NEVER NOTICED SUCH A PSYCHOLOGICAL SORE POINT IN OTHER CHURCHES. MORMONS IN THEIR CHURCH SERVICES REFER RATHER MORE FREQUENTLY TO THE BOOK OF MORMON, DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS, AND THE PEARL OF GREAT PRICE THAN THEY DO TO THE BIBLE. MORMON CHURCH SERVICES TO ME ARE VERY UNINSPIRED AFFAIRS. THEY DO NOT HAVE A PROFESSIONAL MINISTRY AND I HAVE YET TO HEAR ANYTHING IN A MORMON CHURCH SERVICE THAT STRIKES ME AS SPIRITUALLY UPLIFTING. ADMITTEDLY, MOST OF THE SERMONS IN CHRISTIAN CHURCHES ARE PRETTY DULL ALSO, BUT OCCASIONALLY ONE DOES HEAR A REALLY OUTSTANDING SERMON THAT TOUCHES BOTH THE HEART AND MIND WITH POWER.
WHILE THERE ARE BOUND TO BE PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH THE POINTS RAISED BY THE AUTHOR OF THIS BLOG, FROM MY EXPERIENCE AND IN MY JUDGMENT, HE STANDS ON VERY SOLID GROUND IN ALL THAT HE HAS SAID. I DO NOT DETECT ANY ANTI-MORMON BIAS AT ALL. THOUGH I HOPE THAT MY COMMENTS DO NOT OFFEND MORMONS, I AM NOT AT ALL CONCERNED IF THEY DO. FOR THOSE WHO FEEL PERSONALLY ATTACKED OR INSULTED BY WHAT I HAVE SAID, TRUTH AND CANDOR OFTEN CUT A LITTLE TOO CLOSE TO THE BONE FOR OUR PERSONAL COMFORT.
NEIL CAMERON / 6443
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You are right on with your conclusion. I am an ex-Mormon that was brainwashed. It amazes me that my well-educated siblings can’t see all the lies. They really don’t want to see anything for fear of loosing their eternal salvation. I am a Christian now and very happy!
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I hate when my eternal salvation gets loose. Such a pain to catch it.
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do they also know how to turn off their CAPS LOCK?
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I WILL LEAVE THAT INQUIRY TO YOU. PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU FIND OUT!
AS TO ALL CAPS OR UPPER AND LOWER CASE LETTERS, I HAVE A DECIDED PERSONAL PREFERENCE FOR CAPITAL LETTERS. I FIND THEM EASIER TO READ. THAT MAY WELL NOT BE THE CASE FOR YOU OR FOR OTHER PEOPLE. I WRITE BOOKS, AND IN MY BOOKS I DO ADHERE TO CONVENTION AND USE UPPER AND LOWER CASE LETTERS. ANCIENT LANGUAGES GENERALLY, HEBREW, GREEK, LATIN, ETC. DID NOT HAVE LOWER CASE LETTERS. IT WAS ALL CAPS OR NOTHING.
NEIL CAMERON / 6443
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I am a professor of 33 years and a devout Mormon. I am astonished at the lack of truth on this web site… the lack of current scientific knowledge is most concerning, the apparent lack of willingness on the part of the webmaster to include information that refutes the sincere or pathological claims of some contributors is propagandistic. As a neuropsychologist, I’m very interested in the basis for this mental motivation.
To address a few points: The Early Americas were, at the time of Joseph Smith, thought to have been verdant, unpopulated areas with no understanding among historians and anthropologists as to the number and variety of populations that had arrived in South America. Joseph was criticized for saying that “many people” had come to the continent. It was beyond the understanding of the science of the time. Now that has changed. We now know that many “peoples” have inhabited the land. Many have come and gone and many have mixed with the people of this “new country.” Joseph was criticized for including them in the beginning, and now he is criticized that they existed at all given modern day understanding of science. He said there were many people long before science believed this to be the case. Now it is understood. Argue what you want… he saw it long before the science of the day and it has come to pass.
One writer of this this sites mentions the “scoundrel” of Joseph Smith. I call him out as a liar!!! He attempts to appear “objective” but in reality he want to rip the doctrine apart. In truth, I am the same in reverse. That is way I recognize his methods. I am for the for Mormons, he is against. so how does one know? Are we both mentally ill? Maybe. But he is not willing to admit the possibility and thus the objectivity of science is gone. This web site should not host the ravings of the mentally ill. That does not advance the discussion.
“Every day Mitt opens his phone with the prophet.” Now that is mentally ill…. and that’s coming from a trained neuropsychologist. That contributor needs help. Go get it. That is the kind of prejudice and bigotry that has driven the uneducated masses of Islam to radical terrorism. Take a Prozac.
The so called Mormon apologizing for the past…. what a transparent crock. If you were LDS you should get a spine. If now, which is the case in researching the cookies, you are a liar and a hypocrite.
And for all the contributors criticizing the Book of Mormon, the psychological basis of your criticism is transparent. Normally a therapist would try to make the patient feel better before suggesting change but in this case, the basis for the comments is justification of beliefs that are unstable within your own minds and rip on others to sure up your own shaky and unstable beliefs.
There are forces in the Universe that are less understood and once you break from your culture and upbringing and allow and objective review and understanding of all the options, once you allow you “learned hatred” to not be the strongest forces in your life, you may discover the truth,…. “and the truth shall set you free.”
It will be interesting to see if the webmaster even allows you to see this.
kf
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For a professor and neuropsychologist you sure have poor grammar and communication skills, as well as poor critical thinking and reasoning skills. You have not made even one convincing argument with that religious rant.
As for truth, you are speaking of religious ‘truth’, not facts and reality. As Bob Dylan sings: “All the ‘truth’ in the world adds up to one big lie.”
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Why so rude Perry?
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Emily, I merely responded in kind. Did you read Ken’s comments? It is filled with rudeness towards other commenters here, calling them liars, unstable, mentally ill. Since you only pointed out my rudeness, and ignored Ken’s rudeness, I can only assume you too are a Mormon apologist that dismisses the harm its dogma causes.
My rudeness was far less mean-spirited than Ken’s. I merely pointed out the oddity of a professor with poor writing and thinking skills unable to make a rational convincing argument and confined my comment to him, whereas Ken’s rudeness was directed generally at commenters who disagree with him, stereotyping them as mentally ill, which I think is far far ruder than my comment to him.
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Have you ever read the 1830 version of the BOM ? Talk about poor grammar !
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So deluded.
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I am reading it September 3, 2017 ~ almost 4 years after you posted it….
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Ken says:
September 10, 2013 at 9:05 am
“To address a few points: The Early Americas were, at the time of Joseph Smith, thought to have been verdant, unpopulated areas with no understanding among historians and anthropologists as to the number and variety of populations that had arrived in South America. Joseph was criticized for saying that “many people” had come to the continent. It was beyond the understanding of the science of the time. Now that has changed. We now know that many “peoples” have inhabited the land. Many have come and gone and many have mixed with the people of this “new country.” Joseph was criticized for including them in the beginning, and now he is criticized that they existed at all given modern day understanding of science. He said there were many people long before science believed this to be the case. Now it is understood. Argue what you want… he saw it long before the science of the day and it has come to pass.”
If you are actually a professor, I fear for your students. Greatly.
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Science is one of the things that proves all religion false. Joseph Smith was a con-man.
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While much of this is accurate information, it is not true that “[polygamy] is still enshrined in the revealed Scriptures as necessary for obtaining godhood.” And LDS and FLDS are two very different things, and doctrines, practices, and especially the people in the two groups should not be lumped together because they are two very different things.
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“And LDS and FLDS are two very different things”
Well, I only see they are only a F away from each other. I’d bet they have more in common than differences but that’s me: I’m always looking more on the side of big similarities than other people who are always discriminating on the little differences.
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most of the fundamentals have also kept the Adam is God doctrine that was being taught in the early LDS church
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Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants
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This article is well over 50% false. I’m bookmarking this page and someday will address all the BS in this article, line by line. Nevertheless it will probably be futile because of the hardness of the prejudice out there.
Most of you bigoted people are evil and ugly and the only thing stopping me from terminating y’all is that Jesus said I was to love y’all.
YOU OWE JESUS BIG!
So, instead, I love each and every one of you. And, because Jesus asked
me to, I strive to “love (my) enemies, bless them that curse (me), do good to them that hate, and pray for them who despitefully use and persecute” [yep, check your KJV Bible].
It’s a beautiful thing, you should try it.
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So, you admit to having homicidal tendencies towards people who don’t accept your beliefs and the only thing stopping you is your reliance on cherry-picking scriptures that confirm your bias?
That pretty much sums up fundamentalists, whose beliefs are particularly dangerous to women and children. And complaining you are being ‘persecuted’ because of what other people say or believe is hilarious, especially since Jesus promised his followers would be persecuted. Come on, admit it, you enjoy being ‘persecuted’ because it ‘proves’ you are a follower. You should wear it like a badge of honour instead of expressing your desire to “terminate”, i.e., murder unbelievers.
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Mr. Bulwer,
The LDS church does not in any way lead to members having homicidal tendencies towards others of other beliefs. As scriptures teach (biblical and LDS) we are to love one another regardless of their actions and beliefs. Doesn’t mean we agree with them but it is no excuse to be rude to one another or have homicidal tendencies. “Richman” was not “admitting” to having those because that has nothing to do with the church. All this hate towards the church is hurtful and quite mean merely for the reason of trying to attack a specific group of people. The members of the LDS church strive to be just like Christ as do members of other churches as well. The LDS church does good but most non-members don’t recognize that because a lot of them don’t want to give the church any credibility or positive words. Lots don’t believe what Mormons do but that doesn’t give them a right to bash on what they do believe. When the gospel principles are studied one would come to realize that the church teaches very good principles that everyone can benefit from. We’re here on earth to return to Heavenly Father and Christ and we’re suppose to be doing the best we can living the life in Christs’ image. Of course we will never be perfect as Christ was when He was here but thats what we strive for each and every day to be the best that we can be.
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You’re in deep denial; all of this is true, especially the archeology/anthropology and Joseph Smith being a crook. Also, Christianity is not being persecuted even a microscopic bit in Europe or the Americas.
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The issue that drove me out of Mormonism was the Book of Abraham. The papyri that Smith used to produce the book were found in 1967 in a Museum in New York.They were translated by Egyptologists and found to have nothing to do with Abraham and were Egyption funerary documents.
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Sorry, I didn’t get any farther than “it[‘]s racist past…” when I reallized [proof]reading the entire essay would have me climbing the walls…
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Thanks. Fixed. I tend to see what I meant to write.
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“Among the problems with this scenario are…,” IS, IS, IS!!! I give up!
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Whew, you’re wrong on this one. “Are” is followed by a series of three items. But I am actually grateful when people point out typos and other errors. I simply don’t see them all no matter how many times I re-read an article.
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Ok. I am not a mormon. But, I stumbled onto this as a result of other research.
I am angry with the scientific comunity for propagating that Native Americans are the Decendants of Mongols. First, the Mongol People did not exist in the East European area at the time of the Ice Bridge. This is a known anthropological fact. The mongolid people were in central to west Europe at that time. Next, the techonology in the Americas suggests that The people more likely migrated over from the far east of Europe. (See arrow heads, and battle axes) all this technology predates to east europe, and was never used by the mongoloid people. Next, during the age of Kahn, there was a heavy slave influx of Jewish people into the Mongol population. This was known when the genetic studies were made, and a lot of data was tossed. In my opinion, the conclusions are completely invalid. And, even today, you can find a large amount of Jewish markers in Mongol decendants. Hence, if you are trying to say that this is proof against the Mormonism, you are blowing smoke up someones ass trying to prove a point.
The truth is, that there were multipule migrations to the americas. There is proof positive that early in the Xin dynasty Xin (now common chineese) had several boats that may have left large settlements in the americas. Remains have been found to confirm this. There is proof positive that there were decendants that crossed the atlantic bridge. This is easily seen in the common technologies. The people that inhabited the north russian area at the time of the pacific bridge were most likely pre-siberinic white, and not likely did not contribute much. But, the Eskimo people do have a strong coorilation to Mongolid people… Including the Jewish genitic markers. And, valid research shows that they did not migrate into the northlands until much later. Native Americans in the east have been shown to have later European markers as well (this data also was tossed from the all Native Americans are Mongols postulate), and this is evident as it is known that Vikings many have had several settlements in North America.
My big problem is that people are trying to come up with a simple migration plan for mankind. But, the truth is, man did not migrate in simple paths. Mormonism may have a shred of truth to it’s beliefs. Maybe some Jewish boat did sail across… (somewhat unlikely) But, don’t believe the rabble listed above.
Note: I am an Engineer with a second Degree in Anthropology.
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What postulate? Which reputable scientists claim all indians are descended from Mongols?
From Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_of_the_Americas
THE CONTINENTS OF NORTH AND SOUTH AMERICA WERE SETTLED BY NATIVES FROM ASIA (not ‘Mongols’) BETWEEN 10 AND 20 THOUSAND YEARS AGO (not 2,000 years ago) after they crossed a land bridge that formed between Alaska and far northeastern Siberia due to the lowering of sea level during the last ice age.
Available scientific evidence indicates that modern humans emerged from Africa over 100,000 years ago, yet did not arrive in the Americas until less than 20,000 years ago.
Current understanding of the settlement of the Americas derives from advances in four interrelated disciplines: archaeology, Pleistocene geology, PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY, and DNA analysis.
WHILE THERE IS GENERAL AGREEMENT THAT THE AMERICAS WERE FIRST SETTLED FROM ASIA, the pattern of migration, its timing, and the place(s) of origin in Asia of the peoples who migrated to the Americas remain unclear.
KEY WORDS: “between 10 and 20 thousand years ago… NOT 2,000 years ago.
To all the LDS deniers of reality: Mormons are generally very nice, very ‘white’, very wholesome people. I was born to Mormon parents in Payson Utah, I know this to be true.
However, Mormons are also racist, sexist, extremely patriarchal and completely deluded.
Prophets? Revelations? Resurrected Jesus hanging out with the lost tribes in America? Give me a break. What a crazy crock of crap!
Mormon fantasies are nearly as ridiculous as Scientology fantasies.
Not that any other religion is much better. All religions try to to control your behavior, most say they are the only ‘true’ religion but they are all based on fantasy.
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Ooops I meant to say Migrated over from Far west Europe. (In my rage, I mis-typed…)
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Ahh, Jake, science has shown that the native Americans are descended from Asians, who in turn are descended from Africans, as are Europeans, Arabs, etc. The only European blood in them is post-contact and they all came from the far east of Russia, China, Mongolia, etc. http://www.boston.com/whitecoatnotes/2012/07/11/native-americans-migrated-the-new-world-three-waves-harvard-led-dna-analysis-shows/uQRQdkkqMmzSW3LaArh0tM/story.html
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And Mongols were never in Eastern Europe; they were in Eastern Asia, which is where all the migrations came from. White people didn’t get that far east til much later.
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Hey Christians, your religion is as completely fake as all the others, sorry.
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Disgustingly inaccurate. I understand you not believing in the principals taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, but to claim any status that you know better than any “MORMON” is as pompous as you claim Joseph Smith to be.
For those of you who actually want to know what the Mormons believe, stop a smissionary on street or invite them in for
30 minutes when they knock on your door. Or ask a friend or neighbor. Don’t rely on somebody to tell you what we believe. http://www.mormon.org
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Hi Chris –
I hear you and some others saying that this article is inaccurate. But consider this response from another active Mormon: “as a returned missionary for the lds church, none of the points you brought up are things the church wants to hide at all, with the exception of #3 (which is just straight up false, the church doesn’t believe dark skin is a sign of God’s curse. maybe random weirdo members do, but there are random weirdos in every religion that believe racist crap, but the point is that nowhere in church doctrine is this taught officially).”
It is ironic that the one issue with which she had exception is one that the Church itself has formally acknowledged and clearly renounced this month.
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You will always find someone to support your claim, either way. I am a returned missionary too. (and you didn’t reference the other 85,000 missionaries each year) Best learning experience of my life. Worth more th an my M.A.edu. Can’t wait to go again, to share the gospel if Jesus Christ, and his love for us. Don’t think I’ll be wasting my time spreading 1/4 truths about religions i don’t know about.
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You do not have any room to speak on the legitimacy of a religion being a catholic. You people are way more twisted than the Mormons. The millions of people your faith has murdered just because they didn’t agree with you is deplorable at best. Absolutely disgusting. Not to mention the molestations that happen, on what seems like a daily basis, by your priests (or whatever you call them). Religion is the biggest hoax mankind has ever come up with. I can’t believe people still believe in this crap after they are able to read a book and develop some common sense.
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Hi Tommy –
I’m a non-theist and have never been Catholic. Were you trying to reply to another commenter?
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Thed LDS discourages members from reading historical data from early Church leaders because it does show that they were often at odds with what is taught today. Take the Adam is God doctrine believed by most of the early prophets, apostles and presidents.
Brigham Young stated he got this teaching from Joseph Smith . Apostle Heber C. Kimball (1801 – 1874),Prophet Wilford Woodruff (1807-1898),Apostle Abraham H. Cannon (1859-1896),Eliza R. Snow (1804 – 1887), plural wife of Joseph Smith, Jr. and later to Brigham Young etc their teachings were printed in LDS owned journals, newspapers. LDS church hymns of that period, Journals and diaries of LDS.
It clearly states that Adam was the god that they were worshipping . It was also taught that Adam came to earth , had physical sex with Mary and begat Jesus. These are historical LDS documents .
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Why do so many people worry about other religions, when they should be spending time building their own faith? How about spending time telling me about your belief and why I should believe like you do instead of telling me how wrong other people are!
The Bible you profess to believe in never explains that you should try to tear other people down, but to preach His Word. You have a funny way of doing this. Thank you for being an expert in what you don’t believe in, did this article make you feel better?
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well..this is very very super very good what I have read……first of all thank you…SO MUCH….I was raised Pentecostal….evangelical….or you can call it protestant…..eighteen years ago..I met then my girlfriend….now my wife…..eight years on and off…ten years married……I didn’t have any problem on her beliefs…though i thought with the time I will bring her to become or to learn about the real gospel…..but that was not the case……I ‘ve been on that church for the last ten years…..now am on the process of divorcing…..she wants me to leave the house…am being a bad example to our two kids….one 15. the other one 3…and she is stuck on her believe that that’s the true church…..but as I read in your site…and is true…they don’t want you to to know their history……I know the bible….and is just not the same doctrine that the bible explains…then that way they want you to believe……as I read….my soul…my heart…it just felt the happiest moments of my life…..but my question is…….but why the have the nerves to lie to the innocent people…when the scriptures says…that the blood of the innocents will claim justice against you on the final day……well I’ve again…THANK YOU….you have fill my thirst on knowing on the disgraced do called..the church of Jesus Christ….what a shame…
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There are so many things wrong in this and this isn’t really about things that are kept hidden by the Church. And African-Americans didn’t get the priesthood for awhile because, just like every religion, the members aren’t perfect; they were some racists. Also, at least everyone was together, unlike every other church who had one congregation for Caucasians and a different one for every other race. That is much more racist.
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I am roman-catholic priest and teologist at the local university.
We do not agree on many things with the LDS church but since I am teaching the religion for over 30 years now I can clearly say that things stated in your article above are 10 % true.
I will not speak about their book but since I know many of them and have been investigated their doctrines for many years, things stated above are not correct or just written to sound very subjective and negative. Lets be fair to eachother, nobody’s perfect. My church has done so much evil through centuries but I am not responsible for that. Let’s focus on what we do now.
People are not perfect but throwing stones on someone like this is just pathetic.
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Hmm. Some Mormons and former Mormons have said otherwise, and the article was drafted by someone who was also a religion professor at a Jesuit university for years. Which parts do you disagree with?
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I agree with him. P.S. look up Acts 5: 39, 40 and then post something about Mormons.
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I doubt very much that you are a Roman Catholic priest
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I have only lived in Utah for 6 months, but in that short time I have come to realize that Mormons are some of the most psychotic, twisted people on earth. An absolute hoax of a “religion.” This place and this religion are absolutely sickening. To be fair, I think all organized religion is B.S. and serves very little else than controlling people and making money, but Mormons are on par with Arabs. Absolute, undeniable psychos. And the fact we almost had a Mormon president is scary considering what these freaks believe. Every single aspect of life in Utah is controlled and run by these nut jobs, the last thing we need is the entire country controlled by one.
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Relax people. There’s no need to criticize any religion or anyone. We’re all human and have whatever beliefs each of us has.
I, for the sake of my life here on Earth, as I believe everyone should recognize, is that it’s obvious that everyone has their own beliefs, values and practices. Number one to survive in this life is to respect one another and to accept that everyone is unique. We are here to be good to one another and make the world a better place. Can we all just get along? It’s really not that difficult.
I was raised Mormon. I stopped attending church in my early teens. Why? Peer pressure, reading and listening to different opinions from people. For me, I believe in God the Father and in Jesus Christ as the Son of God. The Bible? There are many interpretations, as with all books. Religious or not. All I can say to remember The Golden Rule… “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” I would add, if one does not believe as another does, move on until you find one that does. Don’t end up like the girl from the song from The Guess Who, “Undone.”
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Just want to say if you really believe this bull crap look at lds.org. Most other sites about mormons are actually led by anti-mormons who use false resources and also use ex-mormons who have no idea about what is going on in the church as sources as well. Finally #2 is wrong. The hill Cumorah wasn’t in New York. If there was at least half a million people living and trading from coast to coast it would be somewhere from Panama to the beginning of Mexico. This is also a considerable fact since there was no mention of any winter back then. Also stone buildings have been found in Guatamala in the jungles there and many more remain to be uncovered. So if you really think Mormonism is bull research these facts and try and prove me wrong which you won’t.
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LDS Apostle James E. Talmage, in Articles of Faith, chapter 14, wrote that the Hill Cumorah is in New York.
LDS Apostle LeGrand Richards, in A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, chapter 7, stated that Cumorah is in New York.
LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, in Mormon Doctrine, under Cumorah, reported that it is in New York.
In 1990 the office of the First Presidency of the LDS Church stated that Cumorah is in New York
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints
Office of the First Presidency
Salt Lake City, Utah 84150
October 16, 1990
Bishop Darrel L. Brooks
Moore Ward
Oklahoma City Oklahoma South Stake
1000 Windemere
Moore, OK 73160
Dear Bishop Brooks:
I have been asked to forward to you for acknowledgment and handling the enclosed copy of a letter to President Gordon B. Hinckley from Ronnie Sparks of your ward. Brother Sparks inquired about the location of the Hill Cumorah mentioned in the Book of Mormon, where the last battle between the Nephites and Lamanites took place.
The Church has long maintained, as attested to by references in the writings of General Authorities, that the Hill Cumorah in western New York state is the same as referenced in the Book of Mormon.
The Brethren appreciate your assistance in responding to this inquiry, and asked that you convey to Brother Sparks their commendation for his gospel study.
Sincerely yours,
(signed)
F. Michael Watson
Secretary to the First Presidency
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One last thing for bible lovers out there Acts 5: 39, 40. Please look it up.
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Also http://www.jefflindsay.com/myturn.shtml.
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Freedom of…. Cancer would be nice. Freedom of…. Disease, maybe one day. Freedom of….. Religion, It’s our right as Americans to be free of that! Get it!
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Perry Bulwer won this arguement hands down. Well done.
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I was wondering if an extensive citation list is available? There are in-text citations, throughout the article; However, some things are left un-cited. I would like to do some deeper research on points touched on in this article, and a complete citation list would be much appreciated. Thanks!
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I do not understand the arguments here. Not at all. I am not a huge person of faith and tend to be more scientific (requiring proof before I place my faith in something).
All religions have historical discrepancies chiefly due to them being formed hundreds or even thousands of years ago, some even before mankind could write (passed along via oral tradition).
This is not the case with Mormonism.
To me it is very, very clear that Mormonism was founded by a scoundrel. Unlike all the other religions in the world, Mormonism is fairly new and came into existence during a time when people actually could read and write (No Oral tradition here…we have documents), which means we live in a time when we can actually corroborate the evidence using factual documents. What is great for discerning minds is we actually have documented, first hand, eye-witness accounts converted to sworn written statements ( from his neighbors, his first wife, early church members, court cases…etc.).
This recent, easily attainable documentation of a founder of any religion is unprecedented. We are so fortunate. Imagine if this scoundrel lived a thousand years ago. There would be tales of him walking on water and raising people from the dead.
Any third grader can read the actual history of Joseph Smith and know that he was a snake oil salesman, a sooth Sayer, a con artist, a drunk and a womanizer. He was a thief, had no honor and roamed the country side looking for people to use.
He lived a very good life feeding his base desires by devising a completely fabricated religion. In the end he found a way through life without having to work and he lived like a king with the women of his church worshiping him. When he died, the greatest gig in the whole world was kept alive by the Elders of the church who also were men of the same type. What you really had here was a group of pedophiles that got together and devised a system of control to feed their debased desire for 12 year old girls (Polygamy) and carve out an easy life for themselves.
All religions must evolve to survive and prosper. Mormonism is no exception. As the church grew the doctrines changed and morphed into something more palatable for everyone.
You can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear. This is the case with Mormonism. Make no mistake, no matter how many revisions to the founding documents are made, you just can’t wash the filth out of the magic underwear. The filthy debased usury of hard working people and their 12 year old daughters continues to this day, deep in the basement of this foul religion.
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Bravo! You’ve shown the obvious absurdity succinctly.
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Hi So, I would just like to say that you are wrong. SO wrong. If you want more information on who Joseph smith is, than read: Our Heritage, A brief history of the church of Jesus christ of latter day saints. Mormons didn’t make mistakes. If the whole wife thing is what your worried about I’ll tell you the truth. God Commanded them. If you believe in god then do this: Pray. “Ask and it shall be recceived, knock and it will be open unto you, pray and thou shalt recceive and answer.” Joesph Smith did this and recceived a Vision. The Book of mormon is a wonderful book. When people say that the bible is wrong, and we mormons think that, well its because some parts were mixed up. In 2nd Nephi, it has a verse and If you compare it to Isaiah, (Nephi loves quoting Isaiah) they are different and the one in the book of mormon is the correct. I believe that the book of mormon is the fullness in the gospel and that a third grader, is a baptized member of the church, and can tell you this much: “I know that my savior loves me, he died for me and that the gospel is true.”
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Who knew?! “Acusilaus of Argos, author of an account of gods, demigods and human heroes, claimed his source of information was a set of ‘bronze tablets discovered by his father in their garden.’ He thereby created one of the great topoi of Western forgery, the motif of the object found in an inaccessible place, then copied, and now lost, as the authority for what would have lacked credibility as the work of an individual. (p.9) http://vridar.org/2009/07/04/forgery-in-the-ancient-world/
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Why are people so obsessed with the Mormon religion? If you believe in your own church and it’s teachings, why be concerned with the Mormon religion and try so hard to defame them which is a non-Christian behavior? Could it be that you’re not satisfied with your own church? Just saying
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Maybe we are trying to save Mormons from going to hell which is were they are headed believing as they do.
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So they are headed to hell for responding to the majority of natural disasters just as fast as the Red Cross? They are headed to hell for having Jesus Christ and families as the centerpiece of their church? They are headed to hell for pushing their children to attend college and serve a mission for their Lord and Savior? They are going to hell for creating uplifting websites that help the community such as http://www.justserve.org/? They are going to hell for being hypocrites? Every religion has hypocrites and many people are imperfect. So if the Mormons are going to hell for trying to become better people and serving the community there will be a lot of people in Hell.
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You honestly believe honeybees were ‘introduced’ to the Americas by Europeans? Really? I supposed all pollination was done by Native American hands before bees were introduced to the new world? I’m no Mormon apologist, I don’t even like religion–but you can’t expect anyone to take you seriously when you say such ridiculous and obviously FALSE things.
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Books are available about native pollinators if you are interested. The honeybees that farmers cultivate are of European origin.
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The honeybee was indeed brought over by the early colonists. “No Apis species existed in the New World during human times before the introduction of A. mellifera by Europeans. Only one fossil species is documented from the New World, Apis nearctica, known from a single 14 million-year old specimen from Nevada.[3]”
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I wasn’t following this thread, but the assumption that was made here appears to be that only bees pollinate plants. That isn’t the case at all. A brief overview here: http://insects.about.com/od/BeneficialInsects/tp/7-Insect-Pollinators-that-Arent-Bees-Or-Butterflies.htm
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I am a devout Mormon, and yes, many of our beliefs are quite different than other Christian churches. BUT, this article exaggerates a lot of them. Yes, the Book of Mormon prophesies of Joseph Smith, but so does the Bible. Go read Isaiah 29:11-12. It tells of a book that is sealed, and men asking a learned man to read it, to which he says he can’t, because it’s sealed. Martin Harris, a friend of Joseph Smith, went to a professor of ancient languages at Columbia College, and what happened was exactly what Isaiah had predicted. Not only the doctrine, but also the history of the Church is twisted. For example, Joseph Smith was often in trouble with the authorities, but he never went against any laws. He was only expressing his right to freedom of religion. He was arrested because Satan was stirring up the hearts of the people against him. And think about it. Who else was often in trouble with the law, even put to death? Jesus Christ himself.
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You sound insane.
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No he doesn’t! Read it Isa. 29:11-12 and compare to JSH 1: 60-65
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That’s not true about plural marriage in D&C 132. D&C 132 deals with plural marriage but the quotes you are taking out deal (like exaltation and Emma possibly being damned) are about keeping the covenant in marriage (not plural marriage).
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Why single out Mormonism as screwball. All religions are! If you base your religion on the Bible, you are uneducated and blind to the reality the Bible portrays. The Pentateuch, the first 5 books if the Bible, is a summation of vicious religious nonsense. Read it again—you probably never did before—and drop your belief like a hot brick, as I did. There is a truth that precedes the Bible, and can be found in the Talmud: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you!” Live by that maxim, and you’ll be a “true Christian.”
Peto Veritatem
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All of what I said above is is why I am a Mormon. This is why Mormonism is not faulty or fake religion. It is a religion like any other. I believe in it and place my faith in it, and because of that, you cannot criticize the beliefs, as they are like any other, only larger. It is just like if you believed that it is going to rain tomorrow. It is a belief that I believe in and that I fully place faith in. Would you criticize me and call me a fraud, con-artist, a drunk, just because I BELIEVE it is going to rain tomorrow. I thought not. Now think of what you argued, and recognize the true fault in it. Humility, integrity, thoughtfulness, and kindness are true virtues. Now take those virtues and and change your thoughts by using them as your foundation, then tell me how Mormonism is a foul, crazy, filthy, screwball, religion.
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This article is right on the button. I would like to say the false spirit you feel when reading the Book of Mormon is a Black Magic spirit and can make people a little nutty. Its not the same spirit you would feel reading the Torah or the Bible.
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We no longer believe in the black skin racism part. That is a huge lie. I hate how people always twist things like polygamy, which mormons no longer practice by the way, into something we do now or we now do wrong. Please stop. We all have religious freedom. Believe what you believe and stop judging others bc you dont believe in the same thing
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I’ve read some Mormon history too. As for racism and polygamy, the point is the LDS church did teach this at the beginning, and did state it was God’s word, will, and etc., all based on biblical interpretation. And as far as I’m concerned, as long as the LDS church keeps sending its troops door-to-door evangelizing, it leaves itself wide open to this totally legitimate criticism. An interesting observation made in the Frank Herbert Sci-Fi book, Dune, when the Princess Irulan states that she has switched her allegiance from the Corino family (her father’s family) to the Atreides side (their sworn enemies), “Allegiances once changed, may change again.” Many, if not all, Christian organizations run rampant over an indulgent world claiming whatever they do is the will of God as stated in the bible, then suddenly make an about-face about some divine mandate, still claiming it to be the will of God, while their very bible states, “I the Lord, do not change. I am the same from…” and etc. How many times, in how many ways, can an omniscient God whose will is locked up in a biblical repository, change his mind without changing himself? Why shouldn’t an awakening world desperate to shake the yoke of organized religion question and condemn this religious sophistry? Besides that, what’s the other choice but to give in to religious intolerance and theocratic despotism?
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https://www.lds.org/manual/preach-my-gospel-a-guide-to-missionary-service?lang=eng
This is the link to Preach My Gospel, the standard instruction manual required to be studied and taught by all LDS missionaries. It contains the required lessons to be taught to investigators of the church before baptism into the church. By the simple fact that a large amount of the doctrines the author claims the church wants to sweep under the rug are actually contained in required pre-baptismal learning modules that are rigidly followed, the basic premise of this article, that “mormons might not want you know about” these doctrines is clearly false. I also find the idea that the LDS church discourages personal inquiry completely absurd and obviously based upon reactionary statements from dissidents. A simple and non-jaded inquisition into LDS worship would quickly demonstrate that few things are held more sacred by Mormons then personal testimony and person revelation. Watch a recording of any LDS General Conference and half of the message can usually be summed up as question, ask, learn for yourself, come to a personal knowledge, seek more understanding, don’t take my word on what the scriptures say – read them yourselves daily, pray daily, seek affirmation of God’s will in all of your choices, etc. I pray for two things at this time. The first is for the Christian world, that our energies can be spent in strengthening each other instead of tearing each other down and doing good in the world instead of wasting countless amounts of energy nit-picking over our doctrinal differences. The second is for the atheists, agnostics, and other non-believers who have grown so militant in their anti-religious sentiment, that you can step away from the dogmas of your own long enough to realize that the fallibility of man will never allow for infallible conclusions no matter the evidence. May we all live in love and tolerance.
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I recently had my name removed from the LDS church. The truth is that growing up, I was taught lots of great values and it has helped me to be a better person, but I realized when I was older, I was being told what to think and what I would think and there was this set life plan laid out for me. It made me feel very trapped and unhappy. I decided I wanted to be happy, so I left. And I didn’t really discover most of these things until after I requested to have my name removed. Growing up, being taught/told about these things bout our history was rare. If we were told and taught about them, it was to say that Joseph Smith was an honorable man and people trying to cause harm were evil because they were persecuting him for his religious beliefs. I was taught that Smith had one wife named Emma, and growing up when I heard people outside the church saying he had many wives, I thought they were just being antimormon and were pissed off that the church excommunicated them. Then, the church came out with an essay saying it was true that Smith had lots of wives. Why did they teach me that he only had one? If you are non-Mormon and tell Mormons about historical facts, I think a good majority of them will either not know about them, or deny that they happened/happened the way they did. The warm, comforting blanket the church was to me, eventually became smothering, and then the whole blanket unraveled. While I wouldn’t necessarily consider this church a “cult,” it has many cult-like aspects I didn’t realize until recently. I am trying to move forward though with my life and live it the way I think I was meant to. It is getting easier. A lot of active mormons get upset that some exmos can’t seem to move on with their lives because these exmos say all these negative things about mormons. When I considered myself Mormon I would get upset about these exmos, too, at times. While I think it is really unhealthy to not move on (and I need to try to better move on), a lot of exmos have a really hard time with it because they find out all of these disheartening things about something that was once the biggest deal in their lives. It’s hard to move on. One day I started freaking out while I was driving, crying “they lied to me! Why did they lie to me!!??” It’s hard. But I’m a lot happier not being lied to.
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I honor your journey and courage, Hannah.
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Lol…The BOM is no more or less credible than the Bible. The only difference is the effectiveness of the brainwashing about both or either that the average American is susceptible to from childhood. No religious person who believes in some type of scripture has any platform whatsoever from which to criticize the BOM as being illegitimate. The writers of the Bible were the Joseph Smiths of 2,000 years ago.
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Whoever wrote this didn’t do their research. If you actually read the book of mormon you can justify, or disprove ALL of these LDS “beliefs”. After all, as a mormon I should know. for example everyone seems to believe that we practice polygamy, but we don’t, we used to, but think of it this way, your living (barely) off of the land you possess in a desert. pretty hard to live in those conditions if you ask me. polygamy was just a way to take care of the women of the church, and we stopped when UTAH became a state because the US required that it be stopped. Or when the passage says that all people that aren’t members are bound to go to outer darkness (Hell). this is not true. Our heavenly father is forgiving and no matter how bad you mess up, if you feel sorry and ask for forgiveness he will grant it. Many people also say that the LDS church is a cult. we are not. spend five minutes with one of us and you can tell we are not a cult. People will also tell you that we are not christians, also not true. we believe that christ is our redeemer and that God is the one and only. And for the fact that joseph smith found the plates 5 miles from his house, heavenly father works miracles doesn’t he? and as for the dark and light skinned people, were not racist. we just aren’t. the book of mormon is the true word of god and that christ is our redeemer.
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Denying facts don’t make them less factual. Rejecting a fact to replace it with a myth, well, you need faith for that to work. What if you’re addressing people who no longer require faith to live and guide their lives? Your little sleight of tongue probably wouldn’t work, would it. Didn’t work for me, just thought I’d let you know. Tell Jesus you need a whole new propaganda speech. If he doesn’t provide one, try living your own life your own way, without the religious crutch. It’s incredibly liberating! For starters, did you know that compassion trumps religion every time? It’s a win-win thing and a compassionate person does not need saving. Ok, dinner time here…
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It’s amazing how many LDS are unaware of their own church doctrine and history. Seems obvious that church leaders have made a concerted effort to hide and/or amend the teaching of their so-called profits.
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Long time LDS member, I think many of your prophets and apostles would disagree about Mormons being Christian. “Christianity is a perfect pack of nonsense- the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century”.Prophet John Taylor. “When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was groveling in darkness”. Prophet Brigham Young. As for polygamy, I thought a angel threatened Joseph Smith with a sword if he did not take other wives, including teenage girls and women who were already married. Can anyone spell “adultery”?
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More than half this stuff isn’t even true. Maybe you should get all your facts straight before you post about it. If people want to learn about REAL Mormonism then they should go to LDS.org or Mormon.org You’re not gonna find what true Mormonism is from an article an anti-Mormon wrote.
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Malorie, next time somebody lies to you ask them if they’re lying. I’m sure they’ll admit it right away…
No, that’s not how it works. Your sect is not true, and going to your websites is not going to change that fact.
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I have mormon friends, we don’t discuss religion. I respect their right to believe as they do. If I want to learn more about mormonism I will find an unbiased source which would not be the LDS.org or Mormon.org. If you tell me that any source other than an LDS/Morman source is not going to be truthful well ~ that is your opinion. I was taught in the church I am a member of, to use my God given intelligence to make decisions.
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I am a Mormon but I have struggled with it in my head for years. I am torn because I love the religion and I love the teachings and the close knit family and social setting it brings are amazing. However the problem I face is that being intellectually honest, the claims from which it sprouts are most likely untrue. Teachings such as polygamy do not sit right me my moral compass either, mainly the way it was handled, in pure secrecy… I am at a loss because I love what it brings to the table in modern days but it rests on a very shady history
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Hi Dan. It’s tough! But at some point you have to come to grips with the fact that Mormonism teaches a doctrine that completely changes the essential tenants of Christianity. (Even if an angel teaches a doctrine other than that which you have received…he is anathema) It is clearly closest to Gnosticsm (which is soundly condemned by the Apostles). I’d suggest reaching out to Ex-Mormons for Jesus in Orange, CA.. These are the real deal. (An ex Quorum of 70’s, etc.) Joe Smith was a con-artist perhaps the greatest con-artist in American history. (greater than Barnum because he has led millions in error). You have to wonder at the gall of Joe Smith, Sidney Rigdon, et. al.. The knew it was a con and so do the Apostles today! They know the truth. that is scary! God bless,
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Why in the word would someone want to replace one mound of superstitious bunk with another?
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Hi. I now understand where you are coming from. I’d like to respond but have to head out to a project. Will try later. Thanks, Dave
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Are you serious? You guys actually believe some guy called Joseph read a bunch of metal plates with some brown rocks in a hat without seeing them? Come on, this is the 21st century. Half of you appear to be internally contesting the validity of such a belief system, doubting the feasibility of its origins. When your ‘God’ proclaims that black skin is inferior to white skin, how can you teach anything but ignorance and bigotry? You are no better than the extreme Muslim groups that people are all riled up about. When people learn to stand on their own 2 feet, rationally analyse the preachings of said ideologies (of any religion/cult/sect) then the world will be a far more peaceful place. You’re dogmatic approach to explaining the world is small minded and hurtful to humanity. You are probably mostly good people, but i would ask you to question, would you still be a good person if you did not have your ideology? I personally have faith in your humanism, and would say that yes, you would be good people. Please, for the good of humanity, use your mind….
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I would just like to state for the record that some of the NICEST people I have ever met, were Mormons. My childhood best friend was a Mormon. I own a copy of the Book of Mormon and attempted to read it all the way through but my eyes kept glazing over; it very much resembled parts of the Old Testament, and frankly I didn’t find it any more silly or bizarre than most other religious texts. My atheist friends would probably say (as did some above) that all religion is equally silly. Having said that, the Mormon belief that I personally find very disturbing is that of heaven, where a faithful and properly married woman will have the honor of being wife #1 and spending eternity pumping out babies to populate a planet, although I understand this is not an “official” doctrine. http://www.mrm.org/spirit-children-and-planets If that is “heaven” I don’t want to go there (not a problem, since I don’t meet the requirements anyway).
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I’m a black American male married to a woman from Tonga and many of my in laws are mormon. Over time they would tell me the bomb is true, and I told them it’s a lie and list all the proofs to the contrary that you show in your article only to be labeled a anti-mormon. What gets me angry is they look like some of my neighbors as a child in the black neighborhood I lived in. My sister in laws husband, a ex missionary told me that blacks are still cursed and just received a pardon and his tone was quite rabid. Brainwashed idiot.
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It is a cult. I was baptized when i was 8. Left when i was in my late teens, due to debating certain doctrines and things i noticed, and not being answered the questions i was asking!! …. My parents and siblings had left years before me. My Dad was excommunicated, he even signed the papers, think Mum’ was signed too, but not entirely sure. I’m going back so many years now. Two of my siblings stayed in the church. Dad passed away almost 19yrs ago, and Mum last year. We have just found out that my two siblings have all been to the temple and sealed our parents, 3 siblings, and my mums parents together. I find it despicable, and totally unforgivable. My gran was a member of The White Order. Grandad didn’t believe in religion. And my parents were Spiritualists. How can mormons feel they have the right to do this? Cannot get them in life, so take them in death. Pure selfishness, and totally wrong …
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Lets see, god has had about 25 billion children upon this earth. Say 100 million of those make it to the celestial kingdom. That is 0.4% success rate at bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Hmmm.
There are 10^88 particles in the visible universe. So it would take about ten generations or cycles of gods having children and populating their own worlds before there would be more resurrected humans than there are, in reality, particles in the known universe.
A new cycle starts every 10,000 years or so. So the universe becomes overpopulated in the first 100,000 years.
Does god know any of these by name? After ten generations of gods it would take about 8×10^82 years to acquaint himself with this number of offspring allowing each one second of his time. But it only took 10^5 years to create this many offspring. So god would never have time to get to know his offspring. He could never catch up.
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This person was really misinformed. We are not racist we do not practice polygamy and we are not a cult. Why people would believe this is harsh. Listen to me I am a mormon and this is not true. I would ask you would do some research on this before making a choice. Go to Mormon.org for information on us. Also the author said there was geneological and historical mistakes. This is true there are mistakes in the book of mormon. But this is because the book of mormon is a record of journal entries and letters. They aren’t going to be accurate. Also please don’t refer the book of mormon as BoM. That’s rude. We accept other religions and we don’t scorn them so please don’t scorn ours.
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Mormon, with all due respect, I am afraid that is is you that is misinformed and I don’t necessarily hold you accountable. You have been mislead. I used to be a devout remember of the Mormon Church just like you. The truth is you don’t have to dig very deep into reliable church documents that the LDS Church itself accepts as historically accurate to find out that Brigham Young was indeed a racist and Joseph Smith had at more than 30 wives (At least 6 of which we know he had sex with). And that like a cult, Mormonism has intentionally kept unfavorable information about their founders, their history and their doctrine away from the public eye and the eye their members to keep membership strong and conversion numbers high.
Joseph Smith did have a 14 year old wife and he indeed did gaze a rock in a top hat to “translate” the Book of Mormon. The church, in an effort to be more transparent, recently released images of the very stone that he used. http://mormonstories.org/seer-stones-lds-joseph-smith/
I understand that the LDS Church does good all over the world and gives many wonderful people a moral foundation and something to live for. And yet, It appears that the Church has managed to thrive in spite of its founders, not because of them. This is to the credit of the members themselves and the the credit of modern secular values that embrace equality, free thinking, science, evidence, and reason.
I understand that as a Mormon you now have a choice to make. Do you investigate these points and see for yourself? or do you continue following those who tell you they already have all the answers for you and that no real investigation is necessary?
It is your call to make, but before you make it, remember that Scientologist and followers of Warren Jeffs are just as certain of there beliefs as you are. Could it be that you like them are mislead by misinformation and the unsupportable claim that it is better to rely on faith over facts? I think you will discover,like I did, that you are. Good luck on your journey.
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If these ‘saintly’ Mormons honestly believe that other religions are acceptable, why do they refer to those outside the Mormon church as apostates(definition:those who have left God)? It is absurd. Many believe in God and have not’ left’ anything Godly, yet are, indeed, persecuted BY MORMONS, who have some deranged belief that THEY are the ONLY True whatever- it is totally against what you all claim of being OK with other people’s religions. Just because they are not Mormon does NOT mean they have abandoned God.
You talk about others ‘scorning’ Mormons, yet referring to others who are not Mormon as ‘apostate’ is, in fact, scorning them- accusing them, actually, of abandoning God. Those who think of God as the Creator recognize that every cell in their body and soul is of God’s creation- how then, in that belief, could one possibly abandon God when every fiber of their being and soul is OF God? One cannot ‘separate’ themselves from the Creator.
The Mormon ‘apostate’ accusation is incredibly offensive to those non-Mormons who believe in God. Just because some mortal claims their belief is the only true one does not make it so.
Btw, it is not through deeds that brings anyone to God/heaven,etc.- it is what is in their heart(the seat of the soul).
What is true is true for all time- yet the Mormons think they can change their books/beliefs to fit the times(other ‘religions’ do the same thing). If you all need a crutch, go buy one. Organized religion is another means to control people- (you were given free will so as to avoid being controlled; you were given a brain in order to utilize logic and analysis).
God does not require a religion, or any intermediate to ‘communicate’. The Creator IS and always has been and always will be.
All this nonsense of ‘becoming God’, and going to a planet or heaven, and following mortals on what they claim as righteous is so far removed from the reality of Creator it is absurd. It is as absurd as what Ezra did, changing the Sumerian records to fool people into believing the hebrew were not the same as the habiru. Creating a religion in order to take a social group and attempt to change it to an ethnic group, using a pulpit and ordering people to memorize a ‘history’ that was not their own;changing names and dates to fit the agenda. Every religion that bases doctrine on the Torah/Bible has been duped for centuries. Yet, people THINK they need to believe in something OTHER than the Creator in order to give it substance. It is nonsense. The Creator is the Creator- and no doctrine, or scientific ‘theory’ can alter that. Be happy that you ARE. God’s gift to us was Life- what we hold in our hearts is our gift to God.
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Just ran across this article. First, notice the authors do not attack or, (horror of horror…) judge Mormons. They simply state facts about Mormons doctrines. And, they are 100% accurate. I know. I was one. If the conclusions suggest Mormons are not Christian, than so be it. Second, did anyone notice how the response by Mormons is not to refute the facts? Ex-Mormons like me, who allow the facts to lead them to where they go…leave Mormonism. The big issue is where to go? I found that the doctrines of the Christianity of the Bible are not corrupted; the authority of Christ was never lost because believers have the Holy Spirit as a seal; and, Christianity is not a false religion that needs a restoration by a con-artist. God bless.
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From Barb, My grandson’s mother and grandmother are Mormons. I have asked my grandson to please do not become a Mormon or follow any other “organized” religion. I told to believe in God and in Jesus and everything else will follow through for him. As a severely abused and also sexually abused child, I learned early on in life that you cannot just submit to your surroundings. I went on my own, to various types of churches, listening and learning from each of them. (no cults involved). I learned a number of things. First, every church is led by men. I don’t hate men, in fact, I’m married to a Wonderful man, but I don’t necessarily trust most men. I all these “organized” religions, the man was always put first. His wants and needs were always somewhere hidden in the sermon and women where always expected to follow whatever was expected of her from a man. Even female ministers follow this doctrine. Secondly, every church visit was like a fashion show, where men and women seemed to dress their best. This went totally against what I, myself had read in the Bible. Jesus walked for miles in dusty sand. The people who came to hear him, also lived on that land. No one worried about what they looked like. They were there to hear Jesus. Not that I expected people in church to be smelly and dirty since we do now have access to showers and such, but the very rich-looking clothes went against my sensibilities. I learned that each different church catered to their members. I never became a member of any church because I didn’t think it was a club. Each church had very different traditions and rules, but in there was a fine line of some sort of unity. In every trip to every church I went to, I could hear God trying His hardest to be heard by a deaf crowd. I finally decided that these churches filled a need for most of the people, which had very little to do with religion. So, I decided to just worship God and Jesus on my own. I still have questions, of course, and I do question parts of the Bible myself, but, I am a lot happier and feel God a whole lot more than when I went to church. I guess that I am going to church, but it is my own church and it suits me just fine. I have also recently done some research into the Muslum religion, where I was astonished to find how very similar the stories are to our Bible. Even though it was a woman who told Mohammed that he was a prophet, women are thought of as having less value than a cow. Somehow, to me, they have twisted their religion and produced a religion of misogynists. It’s all too bad, because what I think Jesus wanted all of us to know is TO LOVE EVERYONE, not physically, but spiritually. I certainly am not perfect as I struggle with this myself. Sometimes I can be the most toxic person ever, but I still believe.
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Hi Barb. Your missive is really lovely. I’m glad you have found peace outside organized religion. Jesus was the poster-child for not being in organized religion. A real rebel. There is great value in finding a Church where the members are just Christians. Yes, they are there. The music, worship, praise. The writer of Hebrews was also against organized religion but he or she said, do not forsake the assembly as some have done. The reason is that the Church on earth is a reflection of the church in heaven. God bless. Plan9
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lol i love ignorant people…..im moprmon and alothough most these facts are treue, the funny thing is that they are prove facts, just like the lds religion has almost 15 million members world wide, the largets growth of any christian religion, haveing more members than the world wide jewish population, facts are facts
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As a catalyst for discussion, I am grateful for the article.
My family heritage in the states begins with the begining of the church. My great, great, great grandfather EGM Hogan and his family made the pioneer’s journey from Navou to Desseret less than a month after arriving in the U.S. He discovered Bountiful. His son founded Cove. My great grandfather was a bishop.
Where it ends is with my father, who married a ‘gentile’. She duly converted and was devout, but always treated as an outsider by the members of our ward.
I will never forget the cruelty shown to my parents. I remember my father holding back tears when he’d had enough and said that we were done. He broke with the church. This, from a man whose ancestors saw Joseph Smith speak, travelled with Brigham Young, danced at Hole In The Rock.
The doctrines of the church have great appeal, knowledge and compassion. But I’ve seen little of it in it’s general population. To this day, I am so moved by the writings of David O. McKay, but am knee jerk fearful when I discover that someone is LDS.
To the Mormons I see responding to this site who are the compassionate ones, the kind and gentle, I say thank you for reminding me of the beauty of the church.
To those ‘Saints’ that write No! Wrong! and snark at the no believers, I ask you to think of my parents.
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I grew up in the church and had a grandmother who sang with the Mormon tabernacle quior. When I was 5 my dad who was inactive got custody of me because my mom was a drunk who had boyfriends that would beat and molest me. I never saw my mother after that and my dad took me to his and my step moms home and became, sealed and seriously active in the church and started haveing multiple amounts of children. I remember growing up I was the most nervous, confused and scared kid because I had an evil step mother who would act like a saint at church, around my dad and church members, at a young age I learned what fake tears of a phony testimony was. When it was just her I was seriously in fear when dad was at work, I was emotionally and physically abused by this devil and I had a bed wetting problem. My whole life I went to bed scared if I was going to wake up with a wet bed cause I knew my ass was going to be beat with a belt, this was an every day occurrence as a child, I tried to tell my dad how i was scared of mom cause I wet the bed and the time she put me in a cold water bath tub and I would shake with my lips turning blue before I had to get dressed for school or sometimes I would have to lay in it but mostly my ass was wooped hard. My dad confronted her and she called me a liar and then dad beat my ass for a lie! The branch we went to ended up getting shut down cause it had more inactive members from a tight click that was very hard to be a part of, I never understood all of this being “Mormon” and dad grew up beating me with fists for bad grades, lies of a mother and pack of smokes found in my jacket. I have been addicted to nicotine my whole life cause this was the one thing, for a breif moment that would calm me from my situation and my ADHD. I ended up getting kicked out of the house at age 14 to live with a relative who was inactive and immediately would let me smoke or drink or do different drug experimentation, they just wanted me to stay at their house when messed up so i didn’t get myself locked up some where else, I respect them for that!! I was so happy to be away from my strong active and sealed Mormon family and for the first time felt free. Well I ended up in the streets by 15 when my aunt and uncle got a divorce because my uncle ended up together with my birth mom after we found her cause I was curious to know her again. She was not what I expected! While I was on the street there was a couple of times I called dad up to bring me something to eat cause I was starving and he would but also reminded me I can’t go home until I choose to follow the “Mormon” rules. Well the streets got bad for me to the point dad and that evil step mom had me locked up in institution. From 16 to 19 I spent my time locked up but still very happy to be away from my family. I graduated high school with a diploma (Thank Goodness) but my step mom did not go with dad to my graduation ceremony cause she was too busy cheating on my dad, getting a boob job, going back to college, divorcing my dad and being the most selfish person in the world. My dad remarried and we made mends, I ended up going to college for a short time but quit when my dad got me into a very successful career, dad has looked out for my career my whole life and has helped advance me into huge positions, so now I am 40, I have the most beautiful wife and five kids in the world! But I have kids have not been raised in the church, they are foul mouthed brats to put it mildly. My wife is currently taking the missionary discussion has demanded we start paying tithing, I agree but dread going to the ward we are located in cause it’s another “clicky” ward and everyone has seen me active, then inactive my whole life and struggling with cigerettes to the point I get looked down on, I had took the my fussy baby to the hall during sacrament and 1 person who hold strong to the iron rod went immediatly went to the opposite side of the building to sit when I said hi to him, I swear he hates me! This ward gets my nerves in a shotty mess! Through all this crap, I could easily begin anti Mormon blogs and say this can’t be true but a small still voice has told me my whole life the gospel is true and I’ve witnessed this through blessings and experiences I have had and seen while inactive, active then inactive again. I know this is heavenly fathers restored gospel and holding tight to the iron rod can bring you joy and happiness, I often wonder how things would have been if my faith would have been stronger growing up! I want more than anything to move and go to a bigger ward and start over and me and my wife are considering it cause of the click we both are dealing with but the church is true and if you are Mormon, please remember to always embrace those who seem to be falling down and not so strong with the gospel, friendship from those who have never faultered is welcoming to those trying to be like you. Until then I will work on trying to see going for myself and not these kind of people. For everyone else who speaks against the “mormon” religion or LDS church, remember, Heavenly Fathers restored gospel is perfect. . The people are not!
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Hi Calvin. I’ve known many people with similar experiences. You are to be commended for staying strong through it all. The problem is the “restored ” gospel is flawed. It is not just flawed people. The Apostle Paul said, “But even if we (apostles) or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” (sound familiar?) The things you are reading about in the original article are historical facts discussed by ex-Mormons who realize the entire restoration idea is based on historical lies and fabrications. These facts are the source of the supposed “restored gospel”. The Catholic Church did corrupt many doctrines however, if you look closely at history there have always been Christians who have kept to the original gospel “…once for all entrusted to God’s holy people”. (Once for all…) Ever heard of the Ana-Baptist who were drowned by the thousands by the Catholic Church? If you were to begin attending an Evangelical Church near you (I would suggest around 300 members in size), you would probably find ex-Mormons and, I’m sure what I read about you, there, you would find like-minded people of strength, healing and comfort from true Christians. You could also read the facts about Mormonism from ex-Mormons without being so constricted. I hope you find peace but that is not going to happen inside Mormonism. God bless, Plan9
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I was a member of the Mormon church for 2 years. Then one day I Googled to list Joseph Smiths wifes. The list was very thorough and complete. When I read that 2 of Joseph Smiths ” wives ” were 14 years old I literally denounced Joseph Smith and any further belief in his ” church “.
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Hi David: You will probably be told that is not true. But, it is true. There is so much documentation from the people who were there at the time. “Monogamy, or restrictions by law to one wife, is no part of the economy of heaven among men. …Why do we believe in and practice polygamy? Because the Lord introduced it to his servants in a revelation given to Joseph Smith, and the Lord’s servants have always practiced it.” Brigham Young Just for the record. I went on several archaeology digs to “prove” the BOM. We found cultures there but they were not what is found in the BOM. Joseph made PT Barnham look like a piker! God bless, Plan9
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Each book of religious literature is a piece of the puzzle. Each book alone is made to be rewritten threw out time… But it’s time for us to come together with these books and choose the structure for ultimate enlightenment. This includes every religion, but we are not going to use and negative structures. a basic structure of morals is the key. Answer me this… Who feels like they already knew right from wrong as soon as they were born?
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So pretty much the facts presented in this article are not being taken on and proven as made up or lies by the LDS members. I’m pretty sure that means they understand how much of a con their religion is but they won’t say anything because they want to believe in it so badly. I believe in a God who was born of a virgin, performed miracles that defy logic and science, and allowed himself to be killed only so he could defeat death and rise from the dead. But to believe that a random guy dug up Egyptian gold tablets buried in New York and then translated them with magic rocks that he pulled out of a well and that truest version of the Biblical text said it was ok to have as many wives as you wanted and only through the principle can you attain the highest level of celestial paradise… That’s a step too far.
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I take it you’re being sarcastic about the god who was born from a virgin, etc.?
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Okay, So we all agree that Mormonism is bat shit crazy. Because it’s true, nobody except true Mormons believe that. But then I see other sectors of Christianity go” Mormonism is crazy look at what those people believe”. And hear I am looking at them and going Well wtf, you’re the reason they even have an idea of Christ in the first place. Thanks, a lot. Their the crazies, but you’re the crazy makers. And then you have the balls to say, well we’re not them so we must be the right answer. It’s like the the fucking lesser of the crazies thinks he’s not crazy because he’s not on that level. You’re still crazy. Just not Mormon crazy lol.
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This list is NOT true on so many levels. People don’t believe everything you read! I honestly would hate for people to judge a religion based and the falsehoods written here.
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Melissa, most members of any religion don’t believe every doctrine. That said, I would point out that other Mormons have responded to this article by saying, “yes we believe these things,” So what? Why are you acting like we hide it?
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I myself have studied in depth the bible and the Mormon bible even was going to join the mormon church at one time. There were a few things that kept nagging me though. One why did they put so much into the mormon bible and not the real bible. I would have some of these Mormons come to my house and we would talk. When they asked about if I read the Mormon bible I would tell them I read some but was busy reading the regular bible. They would get so mad and annoyed and start telling me that the bible wouldn’t do anything for me that I needed to read the Mormon bible I did read it all. With an open mind. Nothing in seemed right. First off none of these tribes or families were never mintioned in the original bible. Now the bible talks about alot of families or tribe that go all the way back to the tower of Babel. Not once do you hear anything about anything about these people that left. Even enoch was mentioned later on in the bible. Second why is it that after Jesus died on the cross there was no more profits at all in the bible nor anytime after the bible. Over a thousand years later some random guy becomes a profit. That’s not even apart of the Israel or Judean bloodline. Not even the jews had a profit after christ died. Why is that it is because the proficies were completed until christ comes again. The main point of the bible is Jesus Christ. Now it does say in the bible that even Lucifer will disguise himself as a Angel of light to decive man. Is it possible then that the Angel that Joseph smith saw was a fallen angel sent to deceive Joseph Smith. Another thing the Mormon bible doesn’t match up to the bible in anyway. Not once in the bible does it mention where any of the city’s in the Mormon bible like the land of bounty. Now the traveling it took moses years to leave Egypt and get to cannan it didnt take as long for the people in the Mormon bible to get to America. The fact that these people were Jewish or Israelites doesn’t add up either. If these people left to America around the time of the tower of Babel then there is no way they could be Israelites seeing is how Abraham was the father of the Israelites. Which Abraham was born years hundreds of years after the fall of Babel. Monotheism and the beliefe in the God of Abraham didn’t come until Abraham. There for they can not be of Israel descent. Now if we were all angels once and became human and if Michael became adam then one how did Michael cast Lucifer out of heaven after Lucifer caused adam to and eve to eat from the tree of good and evil. Now how could Michael be a human and an angel at the same time. Also if Michael was adam doesnt that mean Michael ate the fruit and disobayed God which would have caused Michael\Adam to fall from grace yet we see Michael appearing to a few people in the bible. Which means he is still pure and never fell from grace. If there is no hell like mormons believe then why does the bible mention hell all through out the bible saying overs and overs again that all sinners will be cast into hell. Which if the mormons are saying that just that part is not true then the rest of the bible is not true which makes the Mormon religion not true. Same logic goes for anything else they contradict if the Mormon bible is just an extention of the bible then why not just preach the bible. Why force people to read the Mormon bible like they tried with me. Also sense when has God said that we need to do all these things to get into heaven. Doesn’t God say as long as you believe in me and ask for forgiveness we will be saved and go to heaven. So which one is the lie the one where we have to do all these rituals or the one where all we have to do is believe and have faith. Which is the lie God saying anyone that adds or takes away from my word shall be punished or the one that says this Mormon bible is an extention of the bible pretty much an add on. Now what makes more sense over all some guy thats trying to make easy money clams to find these gold plates to start a religion to make some cash and start a chruch in where they don’t have to pay taxes like so many have done in the present or God felt that Jesus didnt complete his mission while on earth that he needed Joseph smith to finish. The historical side proves Joseph Smith was a fraud so does the religious side it you take the time to look at the whole picture. Dont go into any religion with blind faith. I don’t go to chruch I read the bible everday I study history just as much. I pray I do what everyone that believes in God should. Or try to at least once I stopped looking for a religion and just believed and had faith God showed me the light ever sense the things I’ve prayed for have been answered my life as gotten better thing have been going my way. I have seen how God truly works. Please beg any Mormon that reads this please please please read the bible and question the Mormon bible. Do your research dont just accept it becaus someone else says you should.l
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i found life and faith more simple then society, and in any faith wants you to believe.. its no matter what faith we are as long as we have moral composure and patience for neaghbor, and stranger alike. theres been no profits, because we do not believe in anyone as an individual any more.. if you think different than society or faith, its considered mental illness. with the lack of individuality comes more illnesses, and lack of motivation because, just why? why work for something you cant see? who care what another person tells us. they stand there flesh and blood like me and have never seen, herd, or felt, the words they say. and it doesnt matter to anyone. the human right is freedom! physical,mental,emotional… those who take these away from anothr human being, with bars, or words, are labeled psychopaths, sociopaths. people who consider their needs before anyone else. if you ask me, some folks need faith, no doubt in my mind, but let actions for society, positive moves towards less fortunate threw giving a hand, a positive jester, without expectations, for faith preaching.. god for other people to know theres just a bunch of regular people out there, and sociatys looking out for them?!!!!! theres where you start seeing new faces at your church, and real devotion. then youll know who you are, and it becomes so clear why some say god is in us… selfless acts, using money as a tool towards the happiness of a complete stranger… when you know nothing matters but another and their well being over yours, i cant tell you…. its to real to call reality, its too crazy to call crazy. its imperfect perfection, unity of individuality.. to KNOW your SELF, is to know GOD. but threw negative gestures and hateful words because of greed or lazyness theres where you get your devil… there its is in physical form too see and understand. HEAVEN/HELL it all happens on earth because we have spirits. its only turns to hell when our spirits cant choose their own path. looks like hell to me. we all hate each other, nothing but killins and negativity on tv. war, fammon, prostitution, sex, drugs.. ya here we are, smack dab! lets make sure we keep it up, slavery, and fear.. its been working great.
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Let’s all sit around and sing Kumbayah… Look. There are two options with Mormonism. A) You are not a Christian. If that is the case, it is fully documented by ex-Mormons like me that, the BOM is a 19th Century novel written by a Presbyterian Preacher named Solomon Spaulding and which was appropriated by one, Signey Rigdon who just happened to know the Smiths and Spauldings and was a frequent visitor to both houses. And, who also had previously told seerstone user, gold digger, con-artist and, divining rod specialists, Joseph Smith, “… if you are going to create a religion, you need a book.” or, B) You are a Christian. Galatians 1:8-9 says, even if an angel from heaven comes down and teaches a doctrine different than the one delivered to you, he is cursed! Everyone knows the premise of the Mormon Church is delivering a doctrine different than the one in the Bible. God, Jesus, Marriage, Grace (provided by Satan to confuse Christians), etnausea… Either way, your screwed.
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Did you seriously just deride the Book of Mormon and then quote the pseudonymous book of Luke as if it were gospel truth?
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Nope. Incidentally, the Gospel of Luke has been proven to be historically accurate throughout…(as has Acts of the Apostles), government positions, town names prior to 70 AD, topology, But, I did not quote from Luke. Regards,
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I used to live in the town of Manchester near Palmyra where this insanity was born. I say insane because you can tell most of them are out there!!!
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My question is simple and complicated, usually we portray a deity as the opposite of what we are as our own brain can’t comprehend the absurdity of reality. So my question is this- who is/are G/god(s) to you and why? Then, why is everyone else wrong?
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God is a deity of course. In our religion, we believe that once upon a time, God was a human just like us. He had also, obviously been worthy to become what he is now today. In order for us to become like him, we must enter into the Celestial Kingdom after death, and we can get there from other lesser kingdoms even if we have never heard the name Jesus. We can all repent, as far as it is with true intent. At this time, after death we go to either spirit paradise, where we can work and study the gospel, or to Spirit Prison, which is more of a Spirit School. From there we can get to Spirit Paradise, then during to Second Coming of Jesus Christ, we will be judged. Remember, we can still get to higher kingdoms, and progress after Judgement. Why is everyone else wrong? They are not completely, but lets just say they have cut parts of the true church out, and sprinkled
their religion with little lies that became larger and larger. A long time ago, when Jesus was here, there was just one Christian Church. He died, was resurrected, and went back to the Father. After this, did the other religions fall apart, and became “corrupted” in a sense.
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Man … that’s some crazy shit! And you actually believe all that gibberish? Holy spaghetti monster!!!
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Thank you.My adult daughter is receiving instruction by Mormon missionaries & is deciding to be baptized as such.Armed with facts I can hopefully shine a very bright light on their duplicitous hyperbole & perversion of the Hebrew Bible,as per Joseph Smith’s teachings
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“Among the problems with this scenario are that there is no evidence that any Native American groups are Semitic, but rather that they are Mongoloid; there are no surviving traces in their cultures of ancient Israelite customs, language, or religion;”
Well, there is in fact evidence, it’s in the DNA of some Native American tribes
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/11/131120-science-native-american-people-migration-siberia-genetics/
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In response to E Ryan, the Semitic haplogroups or haplotypes that native Americans would certainly include in their DNA if, the Book of Mormon were not a 19th Century Novel and actually an ancient text, would be found throughout native American tribes even if there were a mixing of European DNA with native American DNA over the past 400 years. (note the Ethiopian connection to Jews for example) There is no such haplogroup in native Americans as per the BOM. (which again, is a 19th century novel written by Solomon Spaulding and stolen by one, Sidney Rigdon, aka an Apostle). The only example of Semitic haplogroups found in Native Americans is in an extremely small sampling of “Cherokee” remnants (which may not in fact, be Cherokee), in the Carolinas’ and that haplotype came from Jews migrating to the Americas from Spain during early European migrations. The suggestion there is a Semitic haplotype among native Americans tribes flies in the face of all facts. No such ancient connection exists. Native American DNA has been analyzed ad naseum. It is not Jewish no matter how much you wish the BOM were from God. This notion of a Jewish connection was very popular in the 19th Century and the Book of Mormon was not the only novel that suggested that connection. It was a well known theory.
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I would hope the author of the article realizes this: Mormon women can be sealed to only one man in the LDS temples. Yet men can be sealed to as many women as they want. This would indicate an LDS belief that there will be polygamy in heaven.
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A Mormon friend once told me that as a non-Mormon, I would not be able to have multiple wives in heaven and would look up (his words), from my 2nd Heaven level and see him enjoying his many sexual relationships. I swear he said that! So, there is little doubt Joseph Smith’s eternal prophecy regarding multiple wives is well established.
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Have any of you asked God about this? He above anyone would know weather or not which religion is true…
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Asia, would you tell a child to ask the tooth fairy or a boogy-monster if she is real?
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Valerie, that was the perfect answer! Literally perfect! Warm regards, Plan9
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If you hold religion in general up to the same scrutiny as Mormonism none are true (in my opinion). I don’t think anyone knows as much as we would like to believe we do. There are certainly a few fundamental churches who claim to have the truth but really all they have are the same cult tactics and mentality that cause them to convince themselves to pray about goodness and if you feel something it much be true and if you don’t keep praying forever but if also if you don’t receive a answer it’s because there are a million reasons and possibilities of things you must be doing wrong to not receive an answer from god. What the F. How is that rational! It takes years to recover from a child hood of religious indoctrination so I can see why some educated people fail to see the flaws in there religion. It’s a such a shame it seams like such a waste of there potential and then world’s. Religion has served a purpose I guess but most educated people do not need religion to serve, learn and lead good lives. I believe religion is holding the world back. Not to say spirituality is bad I actually think it’s healthy but fundamental religion is not the way to life’s progression and does not own spirituality and morals. Honestly going to hell for not believing in Christ it just seams so cave man.
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Hi Ex Mormon KP: Enjoyed your comments. Reflect my own attitudes in the past. I’m an ex-atheist, Science degree then, Bible degree from Pepperdine University. Yes, Science and the Bible fit without checking your brains in at the door. As to your comment, “If you hold religion in general up to the same scrutiny as Mormonism none are true (in my opinion)”: Respectfully, although I once held this same view, when I went from atheist to Christian, (I came kicking and screaming into the latter) it was 1000% a result of science and form criticism. Science revealed an over-whelming evidence for “Design” (with a capital D), from a God defined by the Bible as outside space and time. Biblical Form criticism revealed an overwhelming evidence for authenticity of message, dates, genuineness of the text, etc.. I am a skeptic! I did not want Christianity to be true! The evidence, and evidence alone (looking critically at both sides), took me down a road and at the end were these Christians who were smart people, not the religious idiots I had been exposed to. Appreciate your comments and hope you do not stop investigating the evidence.
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ORGANZIED RELIGION = ORGANIZED CRIME
Another cult, another form of racism. The mormons (please remove the 2nd m) are abundantly naive to say the least, no different thatn the catholics, the buddhists, the islamists, the hebrews and the other 4,200 and counting self-righteous religions in the world. Another cult brought to you by another self-centred egotistic despot manipulating others just like the cult of Jim Jones, the Peoples Temple, when in 1978, 918 people were poisoned and/or killed by him and his followers.
The church of jesus christ of latter day saints, until 2013, was officially a racist church as per its own writings in the book or mormons. Bowing to pressure it allowed “black” men to be ordained as priests in 1978. So three yeas ago the LDS finally got un-racisted by decree. Wow, I am impressed. That speaks highly as to the value of “black” words on white paper.
Prior to 2013 the official doctrine of the church was that a dark skin was a sign of god’s curse, while a white skin a sign of his blessing. Now racism does not get any better than that.
The moral of the story is that there is none. One’s belief, here today gone tomorrow. Religions are like the wind, they blow hot and cold as they please; so as the wind blows we find discrimination, killings, wars, assassinations, the inquisition, the crusades, genocide of indigenous peoples, drone assassinations, agent orange, napalm, stuxnet, the nuclear bomb, Trump, etc. as religions stand by denying, supporting or sticking their heads in the tar sands of Alberta to avoid the shame and hide their hypocrisy.
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You see us as liars. Why?
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No. I suspect Joseph Smith was sociopathic. It appears that he lied to get what he wanted but may also taken pleasure in the process of fabrication itself. But I think most Mormons earnestly believe what they say they believe.
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I have read most of this article. I have been LDS all my life and have studied church history for many years. I realize that those who are not LDS would not really want to understand the gospel or the history as a active LDS would. The problem I have is that no matter the intentions one has as a critic they never seem to get the understanding right. There is always misinformation. Most I believe is not intentional but those that read it it becomes truth and no matter how much it has LDS correct it Otis never believed. If you want a true representation of beliefs include a LDS person. Perhaps a point counter point.
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Joseph Smith was insane obviously,when one claims to have seen and interacted with an angel,it;s a pretty sure bet that you are nuts.
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I am a Baptist-LDS kind of guy. I am LDS pioneer stock but spent 20 years in the baptist world. When I considered a trip back to the LDS world I began a massive study of everything I could find LDS. The Language of the southwest Indians contains root words that are ancient Hebrew, This was verified by Israeli Scholars in Israel. They have no axe to grind so they agreed to check out the linguists work. In Manchester KY is a giant ancient rock that fell off into the road it has 7 ancient languages on it and it has been verified as really old. Its currently in a city park. It has been proven twice that a boat coming from the middle east will be thrown into south america simply due to the ocean currents. OH and they sailors nor the sponsors were LDS nor were they aiming for South america. Its now a common belief there have been many migrantions into the Americas both north and south. Michigan has lots of copper mines and a great many ancient small mines. There is a theory that the Phonecians came and got the copper and sold it back into Europe as no one knows where all teh copper came from the bronze age. If you have a copper mnine you never tell where it is ya know.
I have a book written by a professor who spent his young life in south america working. His pass time was collecting evidence for the BoM. Its his masters thesis. I have read talks from main stream Christianity pastors telling them that they are falling behind and the Mormons just dont quit with their archaeology and work to prove they are right. The end of the article says if they dont get busy then they will lose. So if the pastors and such are worried about the Mormons taking over it can only be for one reason. They will be out of a job as you cant make a living being LDS and preaching. So Im the LDS guy who has studied and done his home work. if I had to classify the LDS belief system I would say it was very very primitive and strives to remain so. Its much older than the Trnity which was decided based on a bunch of people and was very politically motivated. Does the Trinity save me? Not in the least, my old Pastor whom I still love told me once “We would gladly give up everything we know about God to learn what we dont know.” So it is will all religions we are simply doing the best we can with what we have today. Key word today. That’s the way every one is even Prophets. OH and the ancient egyptian scrolls of whats left is miniscule compared to what there was originally. By all eyewitness accounts is was 13-15ft long and was written on both sides I am told.
Oh and lets get busy with Hugh Nibley too, now that guy was respected by all scholars and they could never understand why he stayed with the LDS system.
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Ranger Bob. Like many others, you have this hypothesis that the claims of Mormonism are true. You have obviously even investigated the evidence from various sources. Under experimental conditions (e.g., your study), you believe your observations to contain truth But, just because some of your conclusions may have kernels of truth (which I find debatable), that does not make your hypothesis or model to be true. If experimental evidence that is beyond doubt goes against your hypothesis or model, then your evidence is discarded. In every one of your examples you leave out pertinent information that completely proves that piece of evidence to be either a non-sequitur or irrelevant to the overall hypothesis. Hard scientific evidence proves the BOM is not historically authentic and the conditions described in it historically fantastic. Good luck in your ongoing study. Incidentally, you might want to investigate the many Mormon archaeologists who could read Egyptian who left the Mormon church before Mormon authorities handed Hugh Nibley (who could not read Egyptian) the Book of Abraham papyri to translate. And, he is not respected by all scholars.
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Learn more, correct your mistakes, and recognise that others think your beliefs to be strange.
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I was forced to join in a group home called paradise pines ranch deer park wa. at age 15 ..the phony prophet Joseph with fake gold tablets and sooth sayer crap hat or rock was a fraud from day one ..34 years later I move to same area (springdale wa. ) and presto . run into shepherds way phony dog and horse rescue fraud animal starvers thieves crooks scammers ..guess what ? Bundy’s main ex gaurd pops up with more Mormon crap as most Bundy’s are moron Mormon with their phony prophet ..I will prove it now ..jonah terms 1982-1984 ..look up robert Christerson on g + you will see I am not lieing ..and their prophet was always a fraud ..amen in christ on jonah terms twice in new testement written…
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I read this article to see what others are saying about Mormons. I’m a Mormon. This article does not describe the church that I belong to. It is intentionally negative and unbalanced. Reader beware! The facts are much different than these clever authors would steer you to believe. Ask a Mormon to tell you what they believe; don’t trust this article for your source of information! I am a medical doctor, therefore educated. I have a scientific background, therefore am used to critical thinking. I believe in the verasity of the history of the Church. Anyone can write an article that could make the Church seem strange. But the Church I love is not given a fair hearing in this article.
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Yes, all pieces of evidence you stated were true. Every one was a complete fact. I know this, for I have studied Mormon history intensely. The only problem I find with your arguments is that they are not central parts to the LDS religion and aren’t discrediting any information that Mormon’s believe are “central to salvation.” Therefore there is no proof against the central doctrine of the Church and/or what its members stand for.
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A bunch of these are things the church is very open about. In fact, they send missionaries out to teach these things. The bolded text anyways, not the opinions under them.
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These sites are interesting to read but do you know what they leave out????? What is the church we should join? Funny how this is always silent as if to say, as long as you are not a crazy Mormon then do whatever you want. However you never see the author say, a better place to go to church is _______. Why???? Because every religion has imperfect people with quirks. What to talk about the history of the Catholic church, that should be fun! Baptists or Methodists are good faiths too but if you move down the street the next church will possibly vary in their beliefs. How can a faith differ so much from town to town? Non-denominations are an oxymoron and seem to basically have 5 bible verses they constantly quote but no understanding of doctrine besides just being saved. Atheistism is a religion, I mean have you ever seen a more dogmatic group of like minded followers? If all religion is bogus then why do you get so upset about a nativity and other people “wasting” their time. I’m really not trying to be critical, I’m just saying the author lobs stones but I never see where they are claiming an individual should attend to help them to closer to Christ. It’s a lot easier to lob stones at someone else’s glass house when you won’t tell me your address, am I right?
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I wrote a long script once that could easily have been accepted by any reader as ‘truth’. Of course it was all made up. I wanted to write a book. The thing is, Mormons and especially myself believe that Joseph Smith didn’t write the Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, or the Doctine and Covenants. The Lord, Jesus Christ did. Every scripture in these books and the Bible were inspired revealed words directly from the Savior. The words translated from biblical writings were handed down and copied for generations. Some, would have easily misread or misquoted passages while making copies. That Book of Mormon wasn’t changed.
The thing is, ” he said this”. “They said that”. “The rumor is this” . ” The rumor is that”. “He said that that one guy said that the other guy was sure that they heard that…..” isn’t conducive to the real truth of the actual circumstances. Any enemy of a person can make false accusations and print them as truth. Read BOTH sides if you are inclined to believe nonsense. And pray about it.
Truth is righteous. Truth is uplifting. Truth is fulfilling.
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HEADLINE! Baptist goes MORMON!
I “Grazed by the LDS faith when I was a teenager, mom went back to the church from her hippy ways. Yeah, I’m that old, I then married a young Baptist Calvinist for 20 yrs. When she lost her mind and left me with 3 kids to raise I went back to the church, but with a microscope of study. I am VERY THANKFUL FOR MY BAPTIST years it was EXTREMELY rigorous in a study. I continue to study the LDS beliefs and all ancient religious history. I do not have time to go through a response to the above article, I will tell you that it’s at best and I am being charitable here at best a low flying look above the trees. As you would expect in such an endeavor the ability to study field mice on the ground would be shall we say somewhat limited at best.
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It’s all very hilarious if it weren’t so sad – personally I don’t have time for ANY of the Jewish cults, including Christianity and all it’s little offshoots. People are so credulous, wanting to shift responsibility to an imaginary father figure, and wanting to be forgiven by that same figure. Weird. Take your own responsibility, and forgive yourself – you are your best critic if you allow it. Don’t blame imaginary friends, and don’t rely on them either. Rely on yourself.
Certainly don’t rely on a well known con-artist who purports to have had revelations from God. Pity his nuttiness, and move along.
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I think this is all a very big waste of time
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Wow you people are pretty sad to be using partial truths and twisting things and just straight up fake facts as well to turn others away from the Gospel…I think it tells the rest of us something about what’s going in your lives that you came here to disgrace something you don’t even understand just because you’ve never tried to gain a testimony of Jesus Christ…I’m sorry that living a worthy life is too much for most of you, but you should just recognize that that’s a personal problem instead of thinking “oooooh look I’ve found this random piece of church history that I can twist and change to make sound it bad…now I feel justified in claiming to be ‘atheist’ just so I don’t have to try to restrain myself when necessary or live a decent life”
Well keep that “justification” to yourself next time, and don’t pick on us, we’ll try and teach you again when you’re in spiritual prison
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They are Christ like…
Jesus was charged and killed by the Roman government for sedition, sorcery, insurrection, idolatry and treason. ..
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Mormon theology is pagan and polytheistic and as fictionally melodramatic as Greek mythology. The ultimate destiny of every worthy Mormon elder who makes to the highest degree of Mormon heaven, exaltation, is to become Mormon heavenly father-gods, with a capital G, with their wives, who will become Mormon heavenly mother-goddesses, with a capital G, and do everything that their Mormon heavenly father, and his heavenly mother-goddess did, which includes creating an earth, and billions of spirit children to include a first-born son who will be the savior of that world just like the Mormon Jesus. For every Mormon elder there will be a savior-Jesus procreated in the perpetual cycle of Mormon godhood, which the Mormon Church now calls “deification.” Brigham Young stated in 1865 that, “there are as many Gods as there are stars, and as many saviors as there are Gods.” If you don’t believe me, here is the smoking gun proof from “Lesson 21-Man May Become like God,” from the 1984 LDS Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, “Search These Commandments” which was the last 20th Century published affirmation and veneration of Joseph Smith, Jr.’s 1844 King Follett Discourse and Mormon Prophet Lorenzo Snow’s refinement of it in the late 1890s. http://richkelsey.org/lesson21.html The most dramatic expose of Mormon real Mormon theology was the 1877 book by Edward Tullidge, “Women of Mormondom.” which was dedicated to Eliza R. Snow and blessed by the Mormon Prophet Brigham Young in 1877, just before his death. The drama of Mormon polytheistic goddess-hood is detailed dramatically and fictionally as REAL Mormon theology in the book! http://www.gutenberg.org/files/54335/54335-h/54335-h.htm
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Don’t believe everything you read. Any website (like this one) tells things in a skewed point of view. A lot of things mentioned here are either taken out of context or are completely false. Yes, certain things are true and might seem screwy, but you need a basic understanding before you can learn and understand more advanced things in the gospel. Like the Bible says, “line upon line, precept upon precept”. There are good people in every religion and bad ones too, that doesn’t mean Mormons are bad people, it means they are human. Unless you are part of the religion and really dive into it, you shouldn’t judge and assume. Do more research. Read both sides of the story and especially read the Book of Mormon with a true intent and not just to scrutinize. Then you can make your comments.
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Ah, milk before meat.
There are definitely good people in all religions, and I have known some very kind, honest, generous Mormons. There are also very kind, honest, generous people who are not religious. My own tendency, given the contents of Abrahamic religion, is to suspect that people are decent and good in spite of their religion, not because of it.
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Though I read the Book of Mormon forty times in four years, and know what the book says and does not say, it is not intellectual knowledge of why I know it is true, and is the word of God, and another testimony, like the Bible, that Jesus is the Christ. Therefore, I know this because of my personal revelation by the Holy Ghost! First, I know we have a Heavenly Father, who is literally our Father, and His Son Jesus Christ, is the Savior of the world. Also, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s true church on earth today. Additionally, the Holy Spirit has revealed to me that the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith indeed had a vision of the Father and Son in 1820 and he was given commandments to restore the Lord’s Church back upon the earth, as there was a “falling away” of truth as the Apostle Paul prophesied. Any historian knows of the facts of the Spanish (Catholic) Inquisition and the Protestant Reformation, therefore, a need to “restore.” BUT it is not only this, but the fact that when my mother and father were getting divorced when i was a teenager, that I had the experience of praying, with a faith to move mountains, for three hours, that I parted the veil, and the Lord spoke to me in a man’s voice and simply said, “Ronnie, everything will be OK.” At this moment, a feeling which puny words cannot describe came upon me, and yes, since that moment, I have never had one worrisome thought about the divorce. But this “visitation” did not stick unfortunately, it was not until years later, when I was twenty-four years of age (1984) after an accident, and read the Miracle of Forgiveness by Spencer W. Kimball, and when I read, the book had at the top of the page the name “Ronnie” followed by a comma, and then the content. I read it in a day or two, and then the Book of Mormon in three days too, that I began to truly desire to repent. But also a few days later, the devil came to stop my progression; therefore, the Lord sent an Angel of the Lord to me, in the form of a man, standing just above me in the air and said, “Be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord,” and other commandments such as, “I would die soon if I did not repent,” and other counsel, thus, I repented of my then rebellious behavior, and returned to church the on April Easter. I know that “spiritual experiences” do not necessarily convert souls; however, I bear humble testimony that these experiences indeed happened for me, so my “faith is swallowed up in a perfect knowledge” of some eternal truths. I do not have any bitter feelings to those who have either purposely lied or ignorantly lied on this page, and leave all judgement unto the Lord God. BUT I leave all with this, “Every head shall bow, and every tongue confess, that Jesus is the Christ.” In his sacred and holy name, even Jesus Christ. Amen
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Those are indeed powerful experiences, and experiences like these are what binds believers to each religion.
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If there really was an “all powerful” God who wanted human kind to “know” him/her, then there is one basic inescapable conclusion that any rational person would have to reach:
ALL the stories about, and “teachings” from, God should be the SAME all over the world.
And yet, every corner of the world seems to have different stories and different teachings.
Furthermore, all Judeo/Christian religions include the book of Genesis as one of those “truths”, and yet on the FIRST PAGE of the book of Genesis it says that PLANTS were created on day 3, and the SUN/MOON/STARS (“two great lights/luminaries”) were created on day 4. The notion that plants existed BEFORE the sun did is absolutely illogical.
What more needs to be said?
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Dear kimberly the thing is that it is a act the lds play on being this kind and helpful people to the general public but like the article said they are allowed to use deception and lie to the gentiles that is what they call all non lds members isnt strange through that you have a. child of 17. Saying he saw god in a field and god told him all churches were corrupt and they confess with thier mouths but their hearts were far from god and all christianity was a joke according to the lds church
From after 100 ad when the last apostle died til 1830 ad so pre reformationist teachers like
Peter waldo of the waldenes church 1300’s
John hus of the 1400”s
Simon menlo the mennonite. And amish Church 1500”s
The anabaptist movement of the 1500”s
Martin luther 1400”s
Tyndale 1400”s printed the first bible on the guttenburg press
Calvin 1400”s
Zwiegli 1400”s
The wesley brothers who started the methodist church in the 1700”s
They and all the other reformationist fathers got it all wrong sounds a bit fantastic of events
I dont think campbell or stone the first restoration theologians who came up with the same thing
26 years before joseph smith
Whom joe smith borrowed the whole restoration idea from ever condemed all of christianity to promote
Their theology view
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And how did Joe Smith find all this info from the woods of NY at the age of 14?
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Valarie experiences and emotion have nothing to do with truth
A mormon missionary plays upon that for prospective convert
To appeal to their emotions and experiences
They will tell to read the book of mormon and if it is correct
You will get a burning in a bosom
I then say if you get a burning in the bosom after praying if the bom is correct
Then should i pray for a burning in the bosom to tell me if cheating stealing and lying is correct
No because god instilled man with comoon sense of what is right or wrong i do not need to pray
If something is true or false then the missionary will bear his testimony that the bom is true
And the lds church is the true church and joseph smith was a real prophet of god all memorized
Script they are taught if confronted by those they will not listen to and agree with thier thelogy
Ask a missionary why the numbers of missionaries use to be twice as many years ago as their are
Currently because they are not converting as many people as they did years ago the opposite is true more people are leaving the lds church then coming into their church
They just wont admit it to the general public
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LDS missionaries are simply boys out of high school, nothing more. How many of your kids have you sent off to serve God for two years, oh thats right you do do that don’t you and you pay them 100K to do it for life. Pretty good gig for the right person huh? LDS do it at their own expense, live on 35.00 a week and NO ONE gets paid for anything in the church ministry. Yet they still grow and they have I think 85K missionaries in the field at any given moment. When a hurricane hit Haiti who was there first? The LDS with money and food via that other cult called the Catholic church. Go do some open minded research on the Book of Mormon and how it is constructed etc and tell me how one guy wrote it in less than 2 months and the Lord of the rings was 30years in the making and nowhere near as complex. Now with computer word printing, we can tell who wrote something based on their word choices etc. Mark Twain published some works under a fake name to see if it was his work or his name that sold the books. Now we know that it was Twain who wrote it. The Book of Mormon contains 55 Separate voices in it, none of them are Joseph Smiths way of writing not his scribe or even his wife.
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Very sadly, I posted an anti-Mormon meme on facebook for one of my daughters to see…I made a mistake and posted it on her timeline, not privately…my nephew, Joel Pieper, saw it and he is a Mormon….he decided to punish me and now I cannot see in person or on facebook pictures of my three grandchildren he adopted with his Mormon wife, Krissy Pieper. So sad. I don’t hate them, I hate their cult religion that will send them to hell….as for my grandchildren they adopted, all I can do is pray for them, which I do everyday. What a sad, nasty cult they are in…I am saved, so all I really can do is pray for the grandchildren: Cassie, Emma and Luke.
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I am truly sad for you Arla, I would not cut anyone off from family, the LDS faith is all about families and getting along with everyone. Now, this doesn’t t mean there aren’t some jackasses in the barnyard by any means but I do know the LDS don’t teach casting anyone off from seeing kiddos especially the really cute ones. I currently hold dual citizenship in the Reformed Baptist and LDS worlds. I am genetically LDS from Nauvoo Illinois, my family is all LDS. I spent the first 20 years of adulthood in the Baptist world. I learned a tremendous amount from the Pastor about theology and church history, John Calvin, Martin Luther etc. When I decided to give the LDS faith a true inspection I had 20 years of serious theological teaching behind me. What I found was a church that had truly restored ancient concepts lost between Jesus death and the modern day. My research has been going on now for about 11 years. No, it doesn’t come from the LDS church. it comes from various sources of archaeology and even other faiths, The current “Christian” movement is lead by men who have been taught by men who have been taught by men who sat and argued over the exact substance of God. Does this save me more or less? In the end, it is simply the opinions of men. “The inerrancy of scripture is an excuse for lazy people” this is what the rest of Christianity accepts and clings to. Mankind is much like a horse that would rather stay on the barn as do some real work. Handing some one the inerrency of scrpipture is akin to Trust me I know what I’m doing here” What that quote means is that in order to truly know whether scripture is true or not each person should get it out and wrestle with it until they understand it. Also, I saw a Muslim man from the middle east ask what is a Bible? Various faiths have varying books in their bible. He simply asked which one is correct? which one is true? How many Books were omitted from the Bible way back when? Since the finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls (LDS have been very big on this project of cleaning and translating them) many Books have come to light that were lost to history yet they were excluded from the current KJV. If one is to cast out the LDS as not being a Christian one must define what Christian is and what scripture is to be used. Then one must be very careful someone doesn’t cast you out as not being Christian due to your baptism beliefs, or you view of infant baptism. Let’s not forget Baptism for the dead which Paul had no problem with and was practiced for 400 years before the Catholic Church banned it, to gain more control over the people in my opinion. In the end can you tell me why we came here to this eart?
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The fact that you think Mormon religion will them to hell for them believing different than you tells me that you are as wrong as Mormons. When other religions try to prove Mormons wrong based on their religious beliefs it just exposes the weakness of their religion too. I’m not saying Mormons are right but they aren’t going to hell any more than the rest of Christians. Mormonism does not have a monopoly on untrue beliefs.
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One thing ppl do not say here is, what if we could pick apart the lives of our past prophets in the KJV? One thing I read many times was how many did not think they were even worthy. I don’t think it is wise to pick apart their lives to find judgement. I think we should base our beliefs on facts, knowledge, and the pursuit of happiness. So far the dna thing can be tossed off and said that what tribe were they testing? It’s not fair to say all native Americans came from mongoloids. Many of the ancient tribes of the Americas are mixed and nearly extinct. Did they test every nation? Then the racist stuff, geez I’m not even going to go into how many southern churches…..lol it’s not in our doctrine today. And the papyri, according to church leaders, said it’s a correction. I researched. I asked questions. Truth is you can say we are idiots, that we are going to hell, but those ppl you claim as doctrine in the Bible aren’t any better than you or I or even JS. Do we feel the spirit? Yes. And quite honestly I’ve never felt more strongly than when I prayed with mormons. Does the Bible ask u to go on faith? BoA ask you to go on faith?yes so y are we pulling apart these ppl? Who the heck knows what god could have in store for us tmrw. Worry about yourself. Those prophets in the Bible had a ton of wives and concubines! Abraham himself! So we condemn it bc it’s not what we practice now?
I’ll be honest I’ve had a hard time drinking the koolaid. But every time I find stuff knocking it, I find stuff to restore it. Once ppl have a faith it’s very hard to shirk it. If it isn’t true then how do we feel that spirit? Why?
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Hi Mary,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and musings. Let me address just the last little bit. It turns out that there are now rather solid naturalistic explanations for that powerful experience of feeling the spirit, which occurs in a number of religions and spiritual practices. My videos about cognitive science and Christianity delve into this a bit, as does Andy Thomson’s book, “Why We Believe in Gods.” (His video that inspired the book is available on Youtube.)
Warmly<
Valerie
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Thank you I have been looking everywhere for that! I would try and research the science behind the feeling but never got anywhere. Truth is I was born in Mormonism. And I always said if it’s wrong then, I just can’t even be a Christian. Honestly I think many are afraid to find out if it is wrong. Knowledge is pain. The thought of being lied to is sad. I’m still researching but I will let you know my conclusions after I read and watch.
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Again I thank you so much for the thought and information. These are my findings. Just because someone told me to search ponder and pray, that I will know by a burning in my heart is not going to make me feel that feeling. I don’t think you understand my question. I asked what is the science behind this feeling. Why do I feel the burn? So much sometimes it engulfs my entire chest. That’s a feeling, not a thought ma’am. Just because you want to be warm when it’s cold outside isn’t going to make you feel the heat and warmth if there is no heater.
I feel I may never know the real answer here. I’ve searched a long time to disprove this feeling because I’d really like to be able to feel good about doing bad things lolololol. The only thing that I have found that gives me this feeling is the spirit. The church tells everyday what it is, yet a scientist and a doctor of psychiatry can’t tell me why I’m feeling this.
I’m a mri imaging specialist, I’d love to get a hold of that functional mri study that shows what ppl are thinking when introduced thoughts of religion.
For everyone else that reads this. Do your own research. If you feel like I do and you just can’t explain that feeling I beg you to keep searching and if I’m wrong please show me! I wanna know what the heck that is from a science stand point.
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The problem with this article is that it is 20 % inaccurate. Like many other anti Mormon literature, all of the information gets thrown out because part of it is untrue. While I agree with most of the article, it would do more good if it was more accurate or better sourced. For example, Mormons don’t believe God the father lived in this earth. They believe he had a mortal experience in times past. Joseph had plutal wives bit the number is grossly exaggerated. Emma and Joseph’s ritual to get the plates is not ducmented anywhere. Stick to the facts that are documented and you will do more good in you efforts to disclose truth.
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1. How many teenagers and women do you think Smith talked into illicit unions with him? Mormon historian Todd Compton, who wrote In Sacred Loneliness, says there’s good evidence Smith entered into illicit unions (not Compton’s words) with at least 33 women, with Emma being his only wife.
Other scholars put the number as high as 40 or 50. As per Compton, one-third were between fourteen and twenty years of age. Another third were lawfully married, and some of the husbands served as witnesses at their own wife’s polyandrous union with Smith.
Also, in entering into these illicit unions with these teenagers and women, Smith disobeyed the revelation he said God gave him about polygamy. Conveniently, Smith’s revelation doesn’t seem to contain any punishment for Smith disobeying God, but if Emma disobeyed – and she did – she would “be destroyed.”
That part of his revelation didn’t come to pass. Could his “revelation” have been merely a way to have access to sex with lots of women and keep Emma quiet about it?
2. Where do Mormons believe God lived as a man?
General Authority Milton R. Hunter wrote:
Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar that through which we are now passing (The Gospel Through the Ages, 1945, p 104).
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You fail to realize personal revelation. Although your article may be logical, without revelation confirmed time, and time again, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints teaches true doctrine; I can testify of this, and hope one day, you will be curious enough to engage in thoughtful prayer with our Heavenly Father to be confirmed of the same
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All revealed religions rely on the same kind of “revelation,” the same kind of subjective evidence, and each persuades a great number of earnest truth seekers that they have the found the One Way. If a certain kind of evidence can lead to many different worldviews, then it isn’t actually evidence for any of them. It is evidence instead regarding the nature of the human psyche and persuasion–why and how we are so able to believe devoutly once we go down a certain thought path.
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Half of this is false. Black people were not cursed. This means black as in literal black. Like the color of this text black. Also, polygamy was once apart of the church but we have received revelation that we should no longer practice it. You shouldn’t go posting garbage like this. Especially since it’s not true. Go to church. At least we don’t go around saying things like “Buddhists are dumb because they believe in this and that” we have our beliefs like other religions.
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Typical immoral spiritual brain-washing
historical “Man/God/Ism…
And still humans believe the
Rituals each time they hear
The Pied Piper sounds…
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Since none of the sources for the ‘information’ in this post are referenced, it is hard to determine where the truth begins or ends. I managed to track down one: “Naked Truths About Mormonism”, allegedly written in 1888, which contains the alleged affidavits from people who grew up with Joseph Smith (but there was no copy of the book available in Google Books, Archive.com or Project Gutenberg, so it is difficult to evaluate the tone or credibility of its author, who by all accounts was an anti-Mormon ‘crusader’.). Since Joseph Smith was born in 1805, this would have made these informants (if they had actually existed) around 83 years old in the late 19th century at the time they made their affidavits. This in itself is possible but hardly credible, but this evidence is questionable for four reasons. Firstly, it is hardly a representative sample of people who grew up with Joseph Smith so we don’t know what biases are inherent in this ‘sample’. It also means that the vast majority of people that Smith grew up with were dead, so on the one hand, anyone who held a contrary view was probably not around to express it nor was anyone around who could have questioned whether these ‘witnesses’ ever actually knew Joseph Smith. Finally, at that age in that era, you would have to wonder about the accuracy of their memories and the extent to which having lived through 50 years of anti-Mormon propaganda they weren’t affected by False Memory Syndrome and conflated what they could actually remember with the propaganda they had heard.
The author of this article mentions “Lying for the Lord” but given that anti-Mormons had no problem with massacring Mormons including women and children, why wouldn’t they also be willing to manufacture their own “Lies for the Lord”? So you might reasonably compare “Naked Truths About Mormonism” with anti-Semites and the bogus “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”.
A lot of the other items on the list have been previously debunked decades ago (and on Google Books you can find books which do so.) But the thing I find particularly annoying is the idea that Mormons ‘conceal’ their true doctrines. Unless someone is EXTRAORDINARILY lazy, what Mormons believe is readily accessible on the Internet, you can read excerpts from Mormon books in Google Books and so on. You can get copies of their teaching publications on their website. And as a conversion strategy it would not be particularly effective since any convert who suddenly found out that what Mormons ‘really’ believed was radically different from what they had been told up front, would be perfectly free to leave the LDS Church and probably would.
I’m not a Mormon, but as a critical thinker, what I find disturbing is the number of people who have posted here who didn’t even bother to think critically about what was being said or to do any investigation themselves but simply blindly believed what confirmed their prejudices. It’s what I call ‘epistemic laziness’ and is one the prime intellectual sins of our age.Gullibility isn’t a virtue.
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As I read through the list of the criticisms at the beginning of this site my thought on each one that I went through was that they were either false, misleading, and/or partially true. I wondered what type of half baked education the person had who wrote that initial post. Then I read that others here are who posted accused members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints of being uneducated. Then I read that the educated stay in The Church of Jesus Christ because they went to BYU!!! Amazing, absolutely amazing!!! I attend The Church of Jesus Christ with a number of members who have their undergraduate degrees and graduate degrees from all over the world. There are four universities in this area. Local LDS members that I see each have their degrees from the University of Alexandria in Egypt, Cornell, BYU, Long Island University, UC Berkeley, Stanford, the Air Force and Naval Academy and other illustrious as well as not so well known institution of higher learning. Me? I have my degrees from Southern Illinois University. I never took a class at BYU. I think some people need to rethink their biases and take a course in logic.
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The one dead give away to the Mormons is that they can never substantiate their beliefs.. Questioning them about their beliefs or how they justify their claims is always met with defensiveness and redirection to ” Other religions”… While Other Christian religions will point to the bible as their source, and find passage and verse to support their beliefs and although for instance the Protestants disagree with the Catholics, they do not take personally the attack, also,I have yet had an explanation as to how a war that claimed 230k casualties in up state New York can leave no trace of evidence. When asked, Mormons will take offense. When confronted about their inconsistencies, they fall back on personal testimony and defensiveness, instead of bringing Historical facts and Archeological evidence. The bible can be validated by Historical facts, supported by overwhelming archeological evidence and Scholars .. I just wonder why the BoM cannot, and why Members take such offense to this fact.. feeling personally offended when asked about the beliefs of your religion is a sure sign that your religion cannot stand the stress test that is needed to validate it’s claims. It would be an oddity that a protestant felt personally attacked if they were questioned about Martin Luther writing his 95 points on reformation in the 1500’s, thus causing the protestants to leave Catholicism.. They certainly would either tell the story, and back it up with historical undisputed fact, and leave the issue to stand or fall on it’s own merit, or they would shrug and say they didnt know… but I seriously doubt it would be taken as a personal attack..
Perhaps the personal frustration is when history contradicts their timeline and chain of events.. It’s fine to believe in yourself becoming a God… But the path to get there must not contradict historical fact..
By that I mean, you cannot make Christian claims that were not even around before Christianity. There was no baptism, or Church of Christ before Christianity You cannot claim God spoke to your Prophet in 1978 to magically accept Blacks into the priesthood, when CLEARLY your history shows an aversion towards blacks..I believe it was The Mormon president Kimball that was approached By US President Carter, and told of Federal discriminatory lawsuit threats if ” something didnt change”
Truth is sometimes so hard to take.
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I’m not a Mormon, but you raise two points that should be addressed.
Firstly, as the old saying goes “Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence’. Take the Exodus. It is a pivotal event of the Bible, referred to in not only Torah, but in the Psalms and Prophets and in the New Testament. Yet there is zero physical evidence that it ever occurred. There is no written record from any of the neighboring ancient peoples that between 4 million and 6 million people wandered around for 40 years in the wilderness followed by a mass invasion of Canaan nor any physical evidence that it occurred. And contemporary archaeological and genetic evidence would suggest that it never happened. So based on your argument, should we cease to believe in the accuracy of the Bible and as a result cease to be Christians? I personally still believe that it happened regardless of the lack of evidence, and I would extend the same right to believe to my Mormon brethren. Whether or not evidence is preserved is surely in the hands of God. ( Note that there is physical evidence that the Trojan War occurred which to a limited extent vindicates Homer’s Iliad – but that in itself doesn’t prove that the Greek Gods exist or that the supernatural events recorded in the Iliad occurred.)
Secondly, both Luther and Calvin were racist, with a virulent hatred of the Jews. Does this lead you to disbelieve the rest of what they taught? Or more recently, the whole reason the Southern Baptist Convention exists is that they broke with the rest of the Baptist church over the issue of slavery. And in fact it is only in the last 12 months that they have issued a formal apology to African Americans over the historic stance of their church. Historically, the membership of the Ku Klux Klan has been drawn entirely from Protestants (since the apart from African Americans, the KKK hate both Jews and Catholics.) So given the historic record of the Protestant churches, do you think they have a right to sling mud at the Mormons? Note that Joseph Smith was pro-Jewish and not anti-African and the Mormon church has never denied actual membership to any race; the priesthood was denied to African Americans, however the reasons for this is unclear since Mormons claim that neither the Book of Mormon nor the Doctrines and Covenants, nor any other writings of Joseph Smith made this formal position of the church.
I believe the Bible to be true but I also believe that churches generally teach many things that are not clearly taught in the Bible (e.g. the Trinity wasn’t a Christian doctrine for the first three centuries of Christianity; that doesn’t mean that it isn’t true but it certainly raises serious doubts unless you accept the Catholic teaching on tradition.) So to that extent the Mormons are right: no contemporary church teaches what the first Christians believed.
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If it makes us better human beings, who cares if it’s right or wrong. That’s who God is, the good in all things.
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I have done extensive research on Mormonism
Besides the wacky claim.that native Americans are descendents of Hebrews
That inhabitants live on the moon and the sun
That god lived on a star named Kolob
That Jesus and satan our brothers
The denial of the doctrine of the trinity
The garden of eden was located in Missouri
Adam is god and took one of his wives into garden and conceived Jesus just like any ordinary baby
That their is no hell
But three heavens the celestial the terrestrial and whatever the other one is called
The belief in being married for all eternity in a temple doing Masonic type rituals
And wearing undergarments that are to protect the wearers
The despising of the cross
The false claims found in the Book of Mormon
The claim the lds church is the true church and all other churches are false
all these wacky things the lds church teaches proves they are wacky and a cult
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Ok, can you please tell me where you got this information, because many of the things you said are false. For example, Adam is God. I don’t know where you got this, but we do not believe this. We despise of the cross??? Where did you get this? We do not despise it by any means. Also where did you get that we don’t believe Jesus wasn’t perfect, and he was just an ordinary baby?!? We do not believe that.
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Most religions have controversy at their roots, I would say ‘all’ but Buddhism seems untouched (to me).
Certainly racism crops up in many, especially Hinduism (Indira springs to mind). It is also not PC to mention it, but the FBI crime statistics do seem to indicate something is amiss – whether that can be named a curse or not seems trivial to me.
Other forms of bigotry seem to be an intrinsic staple in Islam and if Jews are to be considered to be a race, well …. there are some parts of Islamic scripture which are frightfully negative on this point.
Judaism speaks harshly and punitively over gentiles.
Not that these examples are to constitute endorsement of such hard heartedness or sumpremacy.
Whilst divinity is pure and correct, the minute it enters the earthly real, where all is tested and oft distorted. Surely it is in the hands and hearts of those who think deeply about that which is right and wrong, who try their very best to commune with our Heavenly Father, iron out the creases in the perfect garments which were sewn without seam, but got a little creased when stepping into a less perfect realm.
And the same might be said of the prophets who were or became men. In stepping down to our level, they too became worldly and flawed.
Surely it is about intention and endeavor. About how brightly the spark of divinity burns and in the window of the soul; there to banish darkness yet even in its purity, bend with the wind and leave soot and smoke occasionally.
Even an evil encounter can bring one closer to God.
I have read all these points and considered them. I am still mightily impressed with Fundamental Mormons and still planning to go pray with them tomorrow for the first time; having asked God to bring me closer to his truth and love. For I have been in the desert for decades and I truly thirst.
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As a child brain-washed into the LDS religion, had no choice. As an adult, I have a choice. The LDS practices are indeed racist. We were not allowed to date or befriend, people of color. Black skin was the “Mark of Cain.” What a horrible thing to propagate. Children are forced to “Bear their Testimony” and are completely brain washed from birth as to what that “Testimony” is and what to say. Joseph Smith was a conman, I believe. According to “Eye witnesses” Joseph Smith was “a thief, a drunk, an amoral man and a liar.” If the LDS church is based on that, it will be a huge awakening for members when the “Truth” is revealed. We already know there are MANY species of hominid that did not survive over the last 300,000 years. Proof in Peru, Turkey, basically the whole Middle East.
I was lucky to have been adopted as an older child. I knew about the real world already. The brain washing didn’t take, but I don’t have a close family, because I emphatically refuse to succumb to their false teachings. It is sad. No bigger judgy group exists. Please, EDUCATE YOURSELF! Everything you need to know, is out there. Don’t be Sheeple. The True Bible stories are found, “inconveniently”, by a farmer. You Can’t Hide the Truth…
#Annunaki #LDSandMasoniteRituals #PeruvianMummiesProvedAlienHybrid #TheTruthIsUnderOurFeet #Denisovans #MariaPeru #AsAboveSoBelow #TheWatchers #BibleIsNotTrueNow
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Never have I met a Mormon with a bad character, very pleasant, always looking towards the good, the positive, and that is all that matters to me as a muslim woman. Character matters, beliefs do not matter.
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Hi, my name is Natalie and I am 17 years old. I am not a scholar, I have not even graduated high school yet. The first thing I will say is this; I do not speak for the whole church. please keep that in mind if and when you read my comments. Okay, first of all I know that if I say I was born into the church many people will have already made a decision about who I am and if what I am saying is even worth it. So I won’t say that. I live in a community where there are a ton of members of the Lds church all around me. Everyone is related to each other and has the last name of Walker, Kofoed, or Medaris. My last name unfortunately is Walker. I say unfortunately because there is a large population of Walkers in my school and community. They are all related, hang out all the time, and are all the coolest kids in school, church, and sports. I have the “honor” of having that last name, and I am even 3rd cousins with all of them, but I reap no benefits. I am absolutely not the coolest person in the school, I am not the “most righteous mormon”, I am not the best and strongest at sports compared to them, I don’t have the best singing voice and I do not have all the friends in the world. Some of these people are just downright mean, but on the outside they look like the best kids in the world. They don’t pay me any attention unless it’s an opportunity to flex how many cousins they have and I am the only other “cousin” in the room. I could say a lot of these about this, such as, they are all so mean to me so that means the church isn’t true and I hate all mormons now. I could say and find evidence that because this group of people are basically a cult they represent the entire church as a cult.
There is a great quote that I would like to share and it is this. “You may not always look where you are going, but you will always go where you are looking.” If you look to prove the Book of Mormon is wrong, you will find evidence to make your point and fit your agenda. If you look to prove the Book of Mormon to be true you will also find evidence that will help prove your point and fit your agenda. You will always go where you are looking. On a different note, I love Christ. I depend on him because I am simply too weak to get through this life on my own. Being Meek is not the same as being Weak. I am still strong and secure enough with myself to get through much of what life has to offer, but recently in my life I hit a blank spot. I had questions. Which some people think is wrong in and of itself, because having true faith means not questioning right? Well actually it is the opposite. Having faith means believing in something you cannot see in spite of your questions. I asked people who I disagree with, and I asked people who were not of the same faith as I am, I asked people who were of the same faith as I am, and most importantly I asked God. I am gradually getting the answers I seek, not from one person, but from all perspectives. You all can say what you want about my mental stability, how wrong or right I am, and whether or not what I believe is true. In the end it does not matter. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, and you cannot claim to know everything about what I believe.
I will close with this quote; “A person with an experience is NEVER at the mercy of a person with an opinion.”
I have real life experiences. In the seemingly short span of life I have lived, I have learned that NO one is perfect, and NO one is completely horrible either. I have a testimony of the goodness of God and of the goodness of people. That is all that matters in the end, the character and the intent of the heart.
-Natalie Walker
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Website that prove the lds is not a biblical church.
There is so much information available.
Mit.irr.org
Carm.org
Mrm.org
Cesletter.org
Godlovesmormons.com
I left the church 23 years ago.
I wish I had done it sooner.
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