Bible-believing Christians play fast and loose with their sacred text. When it suits their purposes, they treat it like the literally perfect word of God, and, in a peculiar twist of logic, they quote the Bible itself to back up their claim:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. 2 Timothy 3:16
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I [Jesus] have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. Matthew 5:17
Until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:18-19
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword. Hebrews 4:12
Then, when it suits their other purposes, they conveniently ignore the parts of the Bible that are—inconvenient.
Here are twelve kinds of verses that Bible-believers ignore so that they can keep spouting the others when they want to. To list all of the verses in these categories would take a book almost the size of the Bible, one the size of the Bible minus the Jefferson Bible, to be precise. I’ll limit myself to a couple tantalizing tidbits of each kind, and the curious reader who wants more can go to the Skeptic’s Annotated Bible or simply dig out the old family tome and start reading at Genesis, Chapter One.
1. Weird insults and curses. The Monty Python crew may have coined some of the best insults of the last 100 years: Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries. But for centuries the reigning master was Shakespeare: It is certain that when he makes water his urine is congealed ice. Had John Cleese and William Shakespeare lived in the Iron Age, though, some of the Bible writers might have given them a run for their money. Christians scoot past these passages, but one hell-bound humorist used them to create a biblical curse generator.
- She lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. Ezekiel 23:20 NIV
- You will be pledged to be married to a woman, but another will take her and rape her. You will build a house, but you will not live in it. You will plant a vineyard, but you will not even begin to enjoy its fruit. Your ox will be slaughtered before your eyes, but you will eat none of it. Your donkey will be forcibly taken from you and will not be returned. Your sheep will be given to your enemies, and no one will rescue them. . . . The Lord will afflict your knees and legs with painful boils that cannot be cured, spreading from the soles of your feet to the top of your head. Deuteronomy 28:30-31,35
2. Awkwardly useless commandments. The Bible is chock-a-block with dos and don’ts. Some of them are simply statements of universal ethical principles like Do to others what you would have them do to you, or Don’t lie, or Don’t covet your neighbor’s possessions. But from a moral standpoint most of them are simply useless or even embarrassing—especially if you think God could have used the space to say Don’t have sex with anyone who doesn’t want you to or Wash your hands after you go to the bathroom.
- Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. Leviticus 19:19
- Ye shall not round the corners of your heads. Leviticus 19:27
3. Silly food rules. The early Hebrews probably didn’t have an obesity epidemic like the one that has spread around the globe today. Even so, one might think that if an unchanging and eternal God were going to give out food rules he might have considered the earnest Middle-American believers who would be coming along in 2014. A little divine focus on amping up leafy green vegetables and avoiding sweets might have gone a long way. Instead, the Bible strictly forbids eating rabbit, shellfish, pork, weasels, scavengers, reptiles, and owls. As is, Christians simply ignore the eating advisories in the Old Testament, even though they claim that edicts like the Ten Commandments and the anti-queer clobber verses still apply.
- All that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you. Leviticus 11:9-12
- Thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother’s milk. Exodus 23:19
4. Holy hang-ups about genitals. God, or the Bible writers is hung up about sexual anatomy in a way that many modern Christians, fortunately, are not. In The Year of Living Biblically, the author, A.J. Jacobs, attempts to obey Mosaic laws about menstruation. When his wife finds out what those laws actually are, she gives him the middle finger by sitting on every chair in the house.
- When a woman has a discharge, if her discharge in her body is blood, she shall continue in her menstrual impurity for seven days; and whoever touches her shall be unclean until evening. Everything also on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean, and everything on which she sits shall be unclean. Leviticus 15: 19-20.
- When men fight with one another, and the wife of the one draws near to rescue her husband from the hand of him who is beating him, and puts out her hand and seizes him by the private parts, then you shall cut off her hand. Deuteronomy 25:11-12
5. God’s temper tantrums. Modern Christians may talk about God as a loving father, or even a Jesus buddy, the kind you’d want to play golf with, but in reality Bible-God goes out of his way to be intimidating. Worse, he appears to lose control of his temper at times, lashing out like an oversized thwarted three year old; and his earthly representatives, the prophets—including Jesus—do the same.
- Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, some boys came out of the town and jeered at him. “Get out of here, baldy!” they said. “Get out of here, baldy!” He turned around, looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the boys. 2 Kings 2:23-25 NIV
- Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered. Matthew 21:18-22 NIV
6. Times when the Bible God is worse than Satan. In the Bible, Satan is described as a roaring lion who prowls the earth, seeking whom he may devour. But if you actually read the stories, Satan doesn’t do much other than to tempt people into disobeying the dictates of Yahweh, who acts like a heavenly dictator with borderline personality disorder. God, by contrast, professes his undying love, kindness and mercy, but then commands his minions to commit brutal atrocities when he isn’t up for it himself. Some of the stories are so bad even Hollywood, with its passion for glorious biblical sex and violence, won’t touch them, especially the plentiful Bible stories about sexual slavery and human sacrifice.
- Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18
- He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them. . . . He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD’s Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. 2 Kings 23:20-25 NLT
7. Instructions for slave masters. The reality is that the Bible says much more in support of slavery than against it. Even the New Testament Jesus never says, owning people is wrong. Instead, the Bible gives explicit instructions to masters and slaves. Awkward.
- You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT
- Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. Ephesians 6:5 NLT
8. Bizzare death penalties. Years ago, I wrote an article entitled, “If the Bible Were Law Would You Qualify For the Death Penalty?” It identified thirty-six different offenses that earn a person capital punishment in the Bible. Hint: You probably qualify. And so does the dog that belongs to your kinky neighbor.
- If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21
- If a man has sex with an animal, he must be put to death, and the animal must be killed. Leviticus 20:15 NLT
9. Denigration of handicapped people. The yuck factor is probably wired into humanity at the level of instinct, a way to avoid contamination and pathogens. Shit smells bad to us as does decaying flesh, and our revulsion at illness and injury fuels a whole Hollywood horror industry. The Bible writers had the same instincts, but unlike modern health professionals, who have the benefit of germ theory, they had no idea what was contagious and what wasn’t, and they blurred the ideas of physical purity with spiritual purity. Modern Christians largely escape their denigration of physical handicaps.
- No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the LORD. Deuteronomy 23:1 NRSV
- Whosoever … hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken … He shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries. Leviticus 21:17-23 KJV
10. Scientific ludicrosities. Whatever god or natural process created this world was brilliantly sophisticated and complex. Bible-science not so much. One might almost think that the author(s) of the Bible embraced the proto-scientific beliefs of the era in which they lived, things like a “firmament” of water above the heaven or a sun that literally moves across the sky. Modern Bible-believers get trapped by this, with some continuing to insist, for example, that demons cause mental illness, because the Bible says so. But most of the scientific errors in the Bible simply get brushed away, like the existence of winged insects with four legs or the notion that a mustard seed is smaller than any other.
- All flying insects that walk on all fours are to be regarded as unclean by you. 21 There are, however, some flying insects that walk on all fours that you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hopping on the ground. 22 Of these you may eat any kind of locust, katydid, cricket or grasshopper. 23 But all other flying insects that have four legs you are to regard as unclean. Leviticus 11:21-23 NIV
- The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field; and this is smaller than all other seeds, but when it is full grown, it is larger than the garden plants and becomes a tree. Matthew 13:31-32 NIV
11. Moral edicts that demand too much. If much of the Bible get ignored because it is morally irrelevant, immoral, outdated, or factually wrong, another portion get ignored because it sets the bar too high, like putting divorce on par with—omg–homosexuality. If you want to send a conservative Bible-believer into a froth, try suggesting that Jesus was a socialist. Then, when he goes all Jehovah on you, quote from the book of Ephesians.
- Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same. Luke 3:11 NIV
- Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place. Ephesians 5:4 NIV
A remarkable number of Bible passages that don’t fit one of these categories still manage to be a waste of brain space and paper. Some years ago I worked on a website called Wisdom Commons, a library of timeless quotes and stories from many traditions. I had the idea that I would go through the Bible and pull out bits that were relevant, so I started reading.
What I found was that most of the Bible was neither horrible nor inspiring. It was simply dull and irrelevant: long genealogies written by men obsessed with racial purity, archaic stories about ancient squabbles over real estate and women; arcane rituals aimed at pleasing a volatile deity; folk medicine practices involving mandrakes and dove’s blood; superstition that equated cleanliness with spiritual purity and misfortune with divine disfavor; outdated insider politics.
On top of that, it was badly written, with some stories garbled and others repeated though rarely in complete agreement about the facts. The Bible’s supposed author seemed like a psychological mess, and I found myself irritated. With a finite number of pages to set the course of human history, this was the best He could do?
Thank God most Bible-believing Christians don’t actually take the Good Book as seriously as they claim to.
___________________________________________________
Valerie Tarico is a psychologist and writer in Seattle, Washington. She is the author of Trusting Doubt: A Former Evangelical Looks at Old Beliefs in a New Light and Deas and Other Imaginings, and the founder of www.WisdomCommons.org. Subscribe to her articles at Awaypoint.Wordpress.com.
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AwayPoint 
First published at AlterNet: http://www.alternet.org/belief/11-kinds-bible-verses-christians-love-ignore
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Valerie: Are any of your books in eBook format? I went to order from B&N and couldn’t find an eBook. If not, I’ll order hard copy.
J(SH)
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Oh what a delight it was to read your extracts from the so-called religious books. It was nideed an immense pleasure and more fun thatn watching Saturday Nifht Live. thank you for the inspiration. Now i undestand a little better as to why so many paedophilies are in the catholic church abusing kids; they take their direction from the religious books that tell them it is ok to have slaves and abuse them. The pope recently said that about 2% of the priesthood, including cardinals, bishops, et al are sexual predators.
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it does not promote that. show me where you think it does.
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It amazes me to read your blog…
Have you even checked other translations, or original texts?
For example number 10 Scientific ludicrosities:
You claim there are no winged insects with four legs.
In the English language an insect has 6 legs, but in most other languages insects have 2 arms + 4 legs. A close examination of the insects body reveals that 4 are placed on the lower part of the thorax (so they are the legs) and 2 are placed on the upper thorax (they are the arms).
You also claim that Jesus said the mustard seed is smaller than any other.
Though some (bad) English translations may claim that, most foreign translations have it more correct: Jesus said the mustard seed is the least of all the seeds (even your English KJV says something similar). Meaning it was the least valuable seed on the market these days.
I could easily debunk 90% of this blog without any research, and probably 99% with research. Unfortunately I don’t have time for that.
But I would advise you to do some more thorough fact checking in the future, before publishing. This is quite embarrising to read (at least from a scientific, historical and linguistical point of view). It’s not that hard, just remember Google is your friend ;-)
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Petje, even though your comments seem deliberately inaccurate, I am leaving them here because to my mind they illustrate the ways in which people engage in confirmatory thinking and so over time sacrifice parts of their own integrity once they get stuck with the idea that the Bible is literally perfect, which I think is one of the more awful things that Bible belief does to people. Your comment about the mustard seed is a small example. From our vantage point in the 21st Century we know clearly that the mustard seed isn’t the smallest and so apologetics literature has to offer an alternative interpretation of the text. But if you read the context of both places where Jesus talked about mustard seeds (or, better said, where the writer of Matthew put those words in his mouth–since that is all we know for sure) they are clearly talking about the actual size of the seed not the value. I’m perfectly sure that you could go through every article on this blog and every violent or misogynist verse and rationalize it away. Christianity has spent a millennium perfecting confirmatory thinking in defense of the Bible and Christian authorities, and just like a really good defense attorney in court, it is possible to rationalize or explain away almost anything. OJ Simpson, for Pete’s sake! But that isn’t really the point. What might happen if you dared to ask the questions that have the power to show you wrong?
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Atheists never cease to amaze me. They don’t know the Bible, refuse to read the context, and then mock it. I will give you one clue about what you have written, Valerie. The Old Testament — of which Deuteronomy and Leviticus are a part — were rules for the Jews back in the day; they are NOT rules for people living today. However, some Jews today make a choice to follow the rules of the Old Testament.
And, lest you say “What about the Ten Commandments?” they appear in the New Testament, too.
Come judgment day, contemplate the deliberate ignorance you chose while on Earth, when you have to explain your mockery of the Bible and Christianity to God, and you end up in Hell for eternity for rejecting God and His Word. I feel sorry for you.
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Actually, research suggests that atheists on average know the Bible better than Christians do. I should think that would be especially true for those of use who are former believers.
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Hi Valerie,
I am not sure where or what happened but it sounds like you were once active in the church community and then something awful happened. I’d like to extend a sincere apology out to you on behalf of what happened in the name of Christianity, and I really hope God will lovingly pull you back into a vibrant and meaningful relationship with Him.
I know you still believe in God, even though your mind is telling you otherwise. I know in your heart of hearts you really do believe we are more then cosmic stardust but instead intelligently created beings made in the image of a God so madly in love with us, despite how the world over time has tried to fashion this truth.
You are a wonderful and knowledgeable person it sounds like who is very compassionate and caring about individuals rights and freedoms. What a joy to this world that someone like you is alive today, able to make a difference in others lives.
I know the heartache and pain of this confusion of unbelief and things not making sense and not being accurate or so many opinions and studies saying one thing and others saying something else, not to mention the spectrum of diverse humans who claim different faiths, truths, etc.
In the end it’s ultimately our choice what we believe, but I know deep down you are longing for a loving relationship with our Father God, a good father, not the earthly fathers who have smeared the image of what a true and loving father looks like.
So I kindly and gently ask, will you come back soon? I know God is waiting with arms wide open, figuratively speaking.
With Love,
Jake
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Thank you for reaching out, Jake, and for your generous words. I know that within Evangelical Christianity this is the kindest interpretation possible of my writings and my deconversion. The fact is, though, that I truly don’t believe in the Christian god and have no desire for a relationship with such a being. There are ways to define gods that cannot be shown true or false, that pull us into a space where each of us must simply make our own best guesses. But the traditional Christian God is not one of these. He has a human psyche. His emotions and thinking, his love and his cruelties–all of them are made in our own image, which perhaps could embarrass us a little more than it does.
Peace be with you.
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Valerie: I will gladly respond to these texts. One thing Scripture does tell us to do is to be able to defend our faith. (1 Peter 3:15 (AMP) But in your hearts set Christ apart as holy [and acknowledge Him] as Lord. Always be ready to give a logical defense to anyone who asks you to account for the hope that is in you, but do it courteously and respectfully. [Isa 8:12,13.] ). I love your blog and writings. So I will (with courtesy and respect) write an answer for you! Thanks for the challenge!
Jekyll (Sometimes Hyde)
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thank you Jekyll!! if I understand you right, you don’t believe this but you put in words what millions of christians think.
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Reblogged this on Experiential Pagan and commented:
Since again, the WordPress “like” button is not posting the liked post to my list…
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At AlterNet, commenters had five primary beefs with this article. Here are my responses:
1. “The verses come from various translations.” Fair criticism. After I pulled from different lists I should have taken the time to standardize.
2. “It would have been more interesting to focus on positive, challenging commandments that Christians ignore, like elevating the poor and downtrodden.” Also fair.
3. “Bible bashing is hateful.” I disagree. There is a difference between criticizing or even deriding faulty ideas and hating on people. The former is a crucial part of social, cultural, and moral growth.
3. “The verses cited come largely from the Old Testament.” To this I reply with the words of the New Testament writers. See paragraph 1
4. “Quoting individual verses is cherry picking and ignoring the Iron Age context of the writers.” Yes. That is my point.
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I maintain even if you were Bible bashing (which i don’t think you were) Christians still need to be able to defend their faith. That is their (our) responsibility. I find a vast majority of Christians can’t give a reasonable defense of their faith. Answering your post should be “homework” for every Christian.
Jekyll (Sometimes Hyde)
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JnH, you speak about defending your faith. So pray tell, what defense do you have on these Bible quotes? I would love to hear them.
You claim “I find a vast majority of Christians can’t give a reasonable defense of their faith”. I find this to be so because there IS no defense. For example, you cannot rightly defend the verse, “Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18”, nor can you rightly, with good conscience, defend the verse, “◾Whosoever … hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken … He shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries. Leviticus 21:17-23 KJV”, which basicall claims that anyone who has any sort of handicap or general birthmark is trash.
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BASH THE BIBLE, VALERIE, BECAUSE IT’S FULL OF BILE! :D lol I disagree that it is hateful to bash the Bile, because we are not talking about a person. We are talking about a book. Books, movies, and even papers (whether they are research papers or short articles) are often criticized and considered fair game for critics to critique. Criticism isn’t always or necessity bad. Sometimes what sounds like bad and hateful criticism is often helpful and good criticism. Sometimes the critique gives praise to something too. We don’t have peer reviews or movie critics for nothing and even holds true for teachers and professors too. True critiques are helpful and informative, even giving food for thought, no matter how the critic may come off to the person reading the critique.
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I agree, Mriana. Thanks!
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You’re very welcome, Valerie. :)
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I hear what you’re saying but there is a lot of false doctrinebeimg distributed throughout the world today. Also, it has been directed from many reliable pastors that you should not take one single scripture out of the bible and run with it. Read the entire chapter for the full context of what it is saying and the point that it is trying to convey. Lastly, all bibles are not reliable. There are two bibles in which true believers utilize. The king James version and the N.I.V. I pray that God really speaks to your heart because somewhere along the way you have clearly been misdirected and misled. Have a blessed day love.
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Greetings – The King James and NIV are both considered relatively poor translations by biblical scholars. I might suggest that to get the full context one needs to read not only the chapter but also beyond the binding of the Bible itself, to understand the culture and times in which it was written, the motivations of the authors, the points of view with which they were arguing, and so forth.
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Which brings us to point Valerie is conveying about cherrie picking. Even the Bible versions are now cherrie picked and you stating that not all Bibles are reliable. Point taken. How come when it suits is it allowed to quote single lines from the Bible, but when Valerie does this to prove valid points it is not excepted. Where is the consistency in that? I don’t think Valerie is misdirected or misled in any way whatsoever, except for being judged by you for opening people’s eyes to the truth.
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Cherry picking. …it’s the word of god voted on by the bearded power brokers who cherry picked the chapters to be included more than 300 years after jesus supposedly croaked and went to see his daddy. the council of nicea was.all about the.churches power over the flock(dumb sheep).
im glad i got a vasectomy gives me a biblical reason not to set foot in a church except for weddings and funerals…….and most churches these days don’t check your ballsack for scars or ask if your a bastard……
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You have good points, i will give you that.
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Though I was raised in a “Christian” family growing up we never read the Bible or went to church. I was merely told who Jesus was and that he died for our sins. Without going into too much detail, my parents were not ideal role models for a child and did very little to teach me or my brothers right from wrong, plus we didn’t read the Bible so I escaped that indoctrination. I was left to create my own moral compass through idolizing heroes of stories and finding a few choice adults to look up to.
As I entered adulthood I still called myself Christian when I knew more about the dozen other religions I researched out of curiosity than my own. So I began attending Bible study and church only to be appalled that what they told me grossly defied the morals I valued. My tolerance for the homosexuality of my loved ones, my feminist beliefs, my ideals on equality, even my environmentalist and deep ecological stance were all dismissed in favor of narrow minded and deliberate ignorance. Needless to say I’m atheist now,and very proud of my rigid secular mores and beliefs. Biblical quotes like the ones above helped show me the erroneous and ignorant faults of christianity.
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Sounds like you’re pretty sure you have the answers there Missy!
J (SH)
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Thats good to make.your own mind after.examining the facts….with my kids the cradle to grave crap that was handed down for generations stopped with me…i let them.think for themselves……but my family cousins and.aunts are always trying to save me from hell……i tell them to save their breath. ….and when i tell them why should i believe a book that
1. promotes slavery.
2.child abuse
3.treats women like.crap.
4.is based.on superstitions of a bunch of nomadic sheep herders that dashed babies on rocks.
Having anything to do with it is guilt by association. ……
Plus i don’t want to see those religious nitwits start that end of times.armegeddon crap, ..,….i want the world to last another 6000 years so we.can have a 12,000 year old young earth science and the the hunt.for dinosaurs.that lived.with humans.can finally be proven……amen?
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Yes, I completely agree. Several people have tried to “save” me from hell. Saying I’m fine with going as long as they won’t be there usually gets me a good laugh out of an otherwise irksome situation.
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You are wrong in what it promotes. It is the opposite of that. There were sins in the old days to, and Christians are fighting against it. Those things happen in the bible, yes, but they also happen now and at least the Bible say they are wrong.
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Here’s the funniest part of it all- the original Xians, many centuries ago would not recognize the Xians today as Xians. The beliefs, values, etc are so changed so much that they aren’t even the same as the original Xians. In fact, the original Xians, those that Xians today think of Xians, didn’t even call themselves Xians. The character Jesus wasn’t even a Xian to begin with and was not the founder of Xianity at all.
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So what is Xian .?
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Xian as used here means Christian, not the Chinese city… :-)
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Jesus was the Christ, the promised Messiah, so Christ-tianity actually is named after him.
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Acts 11:26 (NRSV)
and when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for an entire year they met with the church and taught a great many people, and it was in Antioch that the disciples were first called “Christians.”
J (SH)
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“Christian” may have been coined at that time, but details of the Bible, Jesus, etc. were copied from previous faiths. Including Egyptian and Zoroastrian.
http://listverse.com/2013/06/30/ten-influences-on-the-bible/
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talk to my dad.
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Yes and no.
Yes–Your article makes powerful points, showing a few of the worst verses from the Bible. As an avid fundamentalist Bible reader years ago, I came across all of those verses and even worse ones. The troubling one on the bears devastated and upset me at 11 years of age, and I told my Sunday school teacher and peers so.
No–Choosing quotes from any source (not just the Bible) can be troubling. Discernment and sifting are important in all literature. For instance, I could choose “verses” from atheistic literature, that I hope you would also reject stridently.
I’m a former literature teacher who thinks that ALL literature (including the Bible of the monotheistic faiths, other literary texts, as well as modern atheistic texts ) needs to be read, discerned, and judged.
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Thank you. I agree on both counts.
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Valarie, I like your interesting articles and hope they provide much food for thought to your readers and also those people that they share this information with as they pass it on. Unfortunately many people use the Bible ala carte and just select scriptures that they like as an instruction manual for themselves and as a club for others. This is usually done without taking into context the language, idioms, culture, psychology at the time, symbolism, metaphors, use of amplification in Semitic communication, as well as the situational variances in the various books and authors, etc. In short, most people misuse the Biblical texts. Mriana makes a few excellent points in her June 1 post where she repeats the word Xians several times. Christianity today doesn’t remotely resemble what Jesus did or taught. Every one of the texts quoted in your article have a logical cultural/historical/linguistic explanation when looked at in the lens of the people at the time referenced. I won’t go into detail but there is much information available. Some of it can be found at http://www.aramaicbibleperspectives.com . When looked at through a modern lens for practical application in the Western world they are catastrophic. The Bible when looked at as a series of books written by multiple authors over a large span of time in the ancient world is a wonderful and fascinating account of human problems. When looked at in that light we can learn much from it.
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One of the problems Christians must deal with is the fact very few actually READ the Bible. Most it seems ‘read at it’ and then either miss what is actually being taught or begin to quote what they think it says (ie: Money is the root of all evil; God helps those who help themselves).
Jekyll (Sometimes Hyde)
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Many who DO read the Bible thoroughly end up atheists after seeing the atrocities and nonsense contained therein.
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James: Folks can certainly read the Bible and make up their own mind about it. God has graciously given us freedom of choice to make decisions concerning His Word and what He says in the Bible. But Christians do themselves and others a great disservice when they don’t read it and yet spout off as if they do. I’ve read a lot of criticisms of the Bible and read books about people who have worked to disprove the Bible and ended up believing it to be God’s Word. Ms Valerie is an example who went the other way. I haven’t had a chance to read her book yet, but plan to in the near future. Her criticisms and others here are valid questions. I’m comfortable enough with my faith that I am not afraid to consider and discuss them. I just don’t want to do it until I’ve had a chance to read her book.
One last thing. 10 years ago I would have responded differently than today. I would have felt the need to ‘defend the faith’. Age has done it’s work on me and I now enjoy reading opposing views. I will respond with the respect she (and everyone else on here) deserves. I look forward to it!!!
Jekyll (Sometimes Hyde).
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Let’s say for a moment that God did, in fact, exist. God is said to be omniscient, which means that he knows every thing that ever was, is, and will be. This means that a trillion, trillion, trillion years ago (random huge number) god already knew the fate of every single human being that ever would exist. He knows every thought they would ever have, every deed they would ever do. He would know what decisions each and every human being would make.
From god’s viewpoint, every single human being’s life is linear and chosen, which would mean that no human being ever really has free-will. Free will gives every person the ability to make whatever choices in life they so choose to make. The [supposed] fact that god can see everyone’s lives fully from beginning to end means that their paths are already pre-chosen (ie. no free-will).
So! The fact that god can already view each and every persons’ life paths and choices negates the logic as to why Hell would even exist. Hell is supposed to be a place created by god to “punish” those who don’t do what he wants them to do. But if every person’s path in life is fixed, then there would be no reason for god to punish those people who cannot help being what or who they are. God supposedly has a “grand plan” for ever person, which means whatever people become is a part of his “plan”: Hitler and the Haulocost was “planned”, atheists are “planned”, child rapists are “planned”, etc. The whole reason to punish someone is to try to get them to see their folly and change their ways. But if those who are sent to Hell are there burning for “all of eternity”, then that is not punishment. It’s beyond cruel torture without the ability for those souls to learn from their mistakes and repair them.
So 1) why would god punish those whose lives are pre-chosen and he created/planned, and 2) what would be the point of god creating humans if he already knows the outcome of the entire universe beforehand? There is absolutely zero logic in an omniscient/omnipotent being to even create imperfect beings in an already-perfect universe (since when all that existed was god, imperfection was nonexistent, being that god is the only “thing” that is supposed to be perfect).
Considering these, there is no reason why religion would be necessary or logical.
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James: You bring up some good points. Here are my thoughts.
[From god’s viewpoint, every single human being’s life is linear and chosen, which would mean that no human being ever really has free-will.] God surely gave you free will and he gave me free will. We have the freedom to make choices. If you and I were having a cold brew or two and we came up with the idea to rob a 7-11. Then, foolishly, we go rob the 7-11. We had the freedom to make that choice. Did God want us to rob the 7-11? Nope, he didn’t. But he allows us to make the choice to do that if we choose to. But say on the way to the 7-11, you come to your senses and tell me this is a bad idea and we stop. While stopped, we have a few more brews and then finally ‘one for the road’. We’re plastered by this time. We leave, run a light and kill a family of 4. Was that God’s will? Hardly. What did the family do to deserve being killed? Nothing. It was the result of our choices that killed them. We made bad choices and as a result, many people suffer. But did God want us to make that choice? Nope, we did it out of our own stubborn selfishness.
[So! The fact that god can already view each and every persons’ life paths and choices negates the logic as to why Hell would even exist. Hell is supposed to be a place created by god to “punish” those who don’t do what he wants them to do] Jesus spoke clearly about hell. Matthew 25:41 (NASB) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; Hell was created for Lucifer and the rebel angels that ‘chose’ (there’s that word again) to follow him. Which leads to the next point about hell. People will be judged for 1 thing and 1 thing only concerning heaven and hell. What did they do with Jesus and His message. John 12:47-48 (NASB) “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
[So 1) why would god punish those whose lives are pre-chosen and he created/planned, and 2) what would be the point of god creating humans if he already knows the outcome of the entire universe beforehand?] God didn’t ‘choose’ people and force them to do this or that. Man made the choice to sin. God provided a remedy and it is man’s freedom to accept or reject that remedy (Jesus’s atoning sacrifice).
Hope that helps!
Jekyll (Sometimes Hyde)
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Thanks. I agree with you completely about how one can approach the Bible and find insight there. I don’t regret that people pick and choose from ancient texts, or from any text for that matter. I think, in fact, we have an obligation to do so. But yes, biblical literalists tend to do that without acknowledging it is what they are doing. Also, since they can’t acknowledge the human origins of the text, some get stuck trying earnestly to honor words and concepts that don’t merit honor and in fact are morally repugnant. Proof texting like I did in this article has little relevance except as a challenge to those who see the Bible in it’s entirety as the perfect word of God–about 30% of the U.S. population. I think it is critically important that both secularists and modernist Christians showcase the flaws in this perspective because it is doing tremendous harm in our society and evangelicals are spreading it to vulnerable people around the world.
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You are picking on all the people who do it wrong-you are not acknowledging all the people who do it right
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Jekyll n Hyde, “God” may have given freedom of choice, but many Xians do not as they pressure people, esp children, to be Xians. The problem is “God”, if s/he/it actually exists, as well as religion/superstition, is a human concept. Very few people share the same concept of a deity, even within the same religious sect. A prime and easy example are the gods of the Western religions of Islam and Xianity. Despite what people may say, they are not the same and neither are the religious beliefs. Even more so is the Eastern religion Taoism and Western religion Xianity or Taoism and Islam. Even if one does attempt to describe God or the Tao, they aren’t describing it at all. They are only talking about their personal concept of deity. The same goes for the concepts of heaven, hell, paradise, etc. On top of it all, the religious stories and books are nothing more than tribal stories, many of which taken from other tribes/cultures, and then adapted and applied to another culture. It would be extremely judgemental, IMO, for one to insist that their religion is the one true religion, when none of them actually are. Again, they are nothing more than personal and cultural concepts and beliefs. This can be seen when one reads, and even studies, more religious texts than just the Bible.
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I appreciate your comments. I (of course) disagree with your statement: “The problem is “God”. The problem’s not God, it’s what you alluded to in your first line line about Christians pressuring people. You hit the nail on the head with this one. I used to be a person who pressured folks to become Christians. I’ve long since seen the error of that approach. First of all it’s not what Jesus taught at all. He pressured no one. He simply did what He was called to do (Luke 4:16ff). But the other thing is I can’t force anyone to do anything. I can’t force my wife to do anything. I can’t force my sister or any of the people I work with to do anything. I can only lead people in the direction I want them to go. Jesus defines those parameters very clearly. So I certainly agree with you that pressuring people into anything is simply wrong an it doesn’t work. I believe when that happens with sex it’s called rape. Perhaps what you described in your first line might best be called theological rape.
On what the other religions teach I’m’ certainliy not an expert (although I have looked at them over the years). The simple fact of Jesus’s death and resurrection sets a rather high bar for Budda and Mohammad and others to attain to and to the best of my knowledge, none of them have reached that level. I have myriads of questions about God, the universe and life and death. I find the Bible gives me the clearest picture of God. My responsibility as a Christian is to simple tell what’s happened in my life as a result of my committment to God. So that’s what I do. I share with people what God has done in my life (Which is plenty). If I need to dig deeper, I read people LIke Timothy Keller (The Reason for God) and Ravi Zacharius and other Chritian apologists that are much more versed in theology and philosophy than I am.
I read & look at both sides of the coin as well. I’ve read Dawkins, Dennet, Harris and other critics. I look forward to Reading Valerie’s book as well. (I’m moving it off the back burner to the front burner!). I spent my life working in nature with bilogy. The more I work with nature I’m more convinced than ever of the existance of God.
Seriously, thanks for responding. While I obviously don’t know you or anyone else on here, I so enjoy reading your thoughts and your heart on this issue. One of the great regrets I have is that in my earlier days, I missed out on meeting and knowing so many great people because I so foolishly pigeon holed them as this or that. I was the big loser in that game, not them.
Jekyll (Sometimes Hyde)
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No, I wasn’t saying “God” is the problem. It’s the fact that the idea of a “God” is a human concept and many people try hard to impose their concept of deity on others. You are right that you (or anyone else) cannot force their concept on others. I think the best way to lead people is how one lives their life, not by what they say or impose on others. Actions often speak louder than words and who wants to worship an evil hateful damnation deity, who’s followers force that concept on others (ie Westboro Baptist Church)? No one I know, but there are some sects that “rape” people in to believing. Theological rape is a good term that I can agree with and it leaves a very sour taste in my mouth.
I agree, Muhammad hasn’t reached it, but I disagree concerning the Buddha. How much have you researched the Dahlia Lama? Not only that, I think the Tao (which some Buddhists also follow) has some good and reasonable, as well as humanistic sayings. The Taoists seem very humanistic to me.
I won’t dispute your biology studies and your conclusion that there is a deity, but it is my guess IF It really exists, it is nothing like any of the human concepts humans have conceived. This is where I can appreciate the first chapter of the Tao and I seriously doubt that those who say they KNOW, actually KNOW and when they attempt to describe it, it’s unreasonable and unbelievable. This is where I am atheistic- when people attempt to put their concept into words. If one were to say it is indescribable and doesn’t even try to put their concept into words or attempt to label it, except to maybe say, “whatever it is, is part of nature”, such as a Taoist or a pantheist, then I am agnostic and can concede with a “maybe, I don’t know”.
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You’ve got to be joking! Timothy Keller is a theological determinist who thinks God predestines people to hell.:-( I’ve listened to his horrible explanations.
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As always…everyone is entitled to their opinion. You believe what you wish about the validity of the Bible and what it consists of, and leave others to believe what they wish. You people on here rail on about how bad Christians are for being forceful about their beliefs (although I’ve never once experienced any Christian “forcing” their beliefs upon me)…yet people like you feel compelled to vehemently mock and ridicule those who choose to have have faith. You can’t just let it rest at simply disagreeing and going about your life…you derive some sort of pleasure out of being insulting and offensive. Sadly enough, you don’t even realize…it is exactly people like you who Jesus came to seek and save the most. Fortunately for you and others like you…there is still hope.
Oddly enough…the vast majority of the world’s population believes in some form of a supreme being. About 84%. And yet the minuscule minority of you think that they all suffer from some sort of mass delusion, and that you select few know better than the majority. Ironic to say the least.
Say what you will about the confusing, sometimes seemingly horrific or contradictory scriptures of the Bible. There are many points that are raised through scripture that are compelling if nothing else. It’d be interesting to see you explain away how the prophecies are fulfilled time and again, and how even events occurring today are foretold in the Bible. The fact that there are people like you, this vile author, and the others on here who are being so aggressive about denouncing God and mocking and persecuting Christians gives me great comfort. It tells me that the end is drawing near, and I’ll be joining my Father, my Savior, and my fellow Christians in Heaven. All this pain and suffering and torment will be over soon. Rest assured…not a tear is wasted though. For those who trust in Jesus, we have our treasures stored up in Heaven!
I do understand why you and others feel such disdain for Christians. The basic tenants of Christianity rub against the human condition. The premise of love your enemies, not acting out of hate, vengeance, or spite, or having to conform to certain moral standards…just doesn’t sit well with many people. It certainly goes against our instincts…and that’s the point. And I tend to believe that that’s precisely why most atheists think Christians are diluted fools. That, and that fact that we have faith in a Creator that chooses to remain physically unseen. But you just don’t like being told to behave a certain way, and to be humble. Trust me…I know. I was an atheist for the first 51 years of my life. But events in my life served to open my eyes to the presence of God, to the point of where they eventually became undeniable. And oddly enough…the one thing that I relied on to dispute God – science…was the vessel God used to definitively reveal his presence to me. It’s been almost a year now since I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior, and God has seen fit to give me plenty more reasons to trust Him and build my faith in Him. At this point…whether I fully understand or can bring myself to completely agree with every word of scripture…I remain fully convinced of God’s presence. And I fully believe in Jesus and what his life, death, and resurrection mean to us. To be honest, I feel very sorry for you and others like you who feel so compelled to spread your hatred and and aggressively mock others. I know that while you continue to do so, you will never come to know the true peace, love, and joy that Jesus offers us. I have great compassion and concern for unbelievers, and although I would never try to “force” convert you…I will certainly pray for God to help enlighten you and to have mercy on you.
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For me, the basics of Christianity rub against reality and morality. For someone who drank Jesus just a year ago, your mastery of the lingo and superior-yet-martyred attitude are impressive.
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Keller is a Presbyterian so his beliefs would certainly be inline with Calvinist doctrine. Have you actually read any of Keller’s writings? I would recommend “The Reason for God”. He outlines solid reasoning for his belief in God. It’s a good book. Hope you will read it!
J (SH)
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Yes I have, unfortunately. Keller believes like most Calvinists that God has a secret will in which he plans all evil:-( . The first Calvinist leader I heard teach this emphasized that God planned every rape and murder that will take place.:-( Some Calvinist even claim that God planned the Jewish holocaust for his own glory. I hope to God Keller doesn’t go that far. In my reading I’ve not heard him say that.
Not only have I read The Reason for God, I’ve read other articles by Keller and listened to audios. He follows the Calvinist agenda.
Not only that, sadly, since I’m an American literature teacher I also studied under a man who earned his PhD. in Calvinism and I’ve read most of the famous Calvinist tomes from R.L. Dabney to Loraine Boettner, to Pink to Packer, to Sproul to Piper, etc. Al the way to Matt Chandler who claims in The Explicit Gospel that all infants at conception are in “essence, evil”!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Keller and all the other Calvinists proclaim horrifically terrible news. Don’t take my word for it as a teacher. Continue reading. You will find out they all claim we have no choice, God foreordained us to hell before the beginning of time, that Jesus only died for a limited number of humans, T.U.L.I.P. etc. Very sick.
Keller’s Calvinism/Presbyterianism is the total opposite of the good news I received when I was saved, worked as a volunteer for the Billy Graham Crusade, was youth minister, etc.
Billy Graham emphasized that God loves to save everyone.
All Calvinists (the mild as well as the hard) believe God foreordained only some people to be saved.
To hell with the rest:-(
So all my family, billions of people were foreordained to eternal damnation.
How could you possibly agree with Keller?:-(
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Daniel: I am Methodist in my theological perspective so I’m clearly on the other side of the fence from a Calvinist and don’t ascribe to Calvinist theology, specifically predestination or depravity. I think the point I was trying to make was Keller’s reasoning for God’s existence. I would never point anyone to Calvinism for doctrinal persuasion. I think the strength of his book is in the way he lays out his arguments.
Over the years I’ve talked with many Calvinists concerning predestination. These have been difficult conversations. The subject is one Wesley dealt with convincingly in his sermon # 58 on predestination. Wesley also supported the idea of In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and in all things love.
J (SH)
Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad
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I might be so bold as to say, if I thought God was anything like he was portrayed by the Calvinist’s you described, I certainly would have nothing to do with him either. Fortunately He’s not that way and scripture doesn’t teach that He is!
J (SH)
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I grew up Wesleyan and my grandfather read Calvin. His response was, “Wesley had it right, but Calvin had it wrong.” Not sure why he said that, but it just goes to show what I said about concepts and most of those concepts are handed to us, sometimes even forced on us, by our elders, not allowing us to make our own choices about what we do or do not believe. If one is raised Calvin, they probably believe that Calvin it had right and Wesley had it wrong. Doctrine of Predestination or doctrine of Perfectionism… both, IMO, are bad and unhealthy concepts. Secondly, the problem with apologists is that even if another sees a flaw in the doctrine, the apologist tries many ways, often taught through a form of brainwashing, attempt to support and uphold the doctrine, even if their statements are not logical.
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Wesley’s doctrine of Christian Perfection is sadly misunderstood. It doesn’t mean what most people think it does. The people I’ve read that I would consider sold in apologetics are anything but brainwashed. They are highly intelligent and worked their way though the main questions of their lives and after wrestling with them, ended up as Christians. I know there are many people out there who give Christianity a black eye. The clowns at the Westboro Baptist Church are just the most recent public example. Those clowns don’t represent God. Nothing in their actions or their twisted logic is remotely representative of what Jesus stood for. So please don’t think they are anything other than a fringe group that has an incredibly twisted view of life!
Jekyll (Sometimes Hyde)
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there is nothing wrong with presbyterian–there are bad people in all places
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Hey J (SH) Jekyll, please get rid of the Hyde;-) just kidding you. Great book by the way. Remember, I’m a retired lit teacher and writer.
Thanks for the response. You probably also remember when Wesley wrote another person that he would rather be an atheist than subscribe to the Calvinistic view of God, a “tyrant.”
And to mriana:-)
Yeah, a little kindness and compassion, instead of doctrine and dogma, would help.
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Reason, compassion, kindness, love, and knowledge is how I strive to live my life. I’d sooner give dogmatic Xians, who think they know their book, a thump (of knowledge and reason) on the head (out of compassion) than pay them lip-service though, for they haven’t a clue as to what they are saying or how they are saying it.
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(JnH, sorry, tried to reply several times but it wouldn’t post, so I had to create it in a new one)
[begin quote]
James: You bring up some good points. Here are my thoughts.
[From god’s viewpoint, every single human being’s life is linear and chosen, which would mean that no human being ever really has free-will.] God surely gave you free will and he gave me free will. We have the freedom to make choices. If you and I were having a cold brew or two and we came up with the idea to rob a 7-11. Then, foolishly, we go rob the 7-11. We had the freedom to make that choice. Did God want us to rob the 7-11? Nope, he didn’t. But he allows us to make the choice to do that if we choose to. But say on the way to the 7-11, you come to your senses and tell me this is a bad idea and we stop. While stopped, we have a few more brews and then finally ‘one for the road’. We’re plastered by this time. We leave, run a light and kill a family of 4. Was that God’s will? Hardly. What did the family do to deserve being killed? Nothing. It was the result of our choices that killed them. We made bad choices and as a result, many people suffer. But did God want us to make that choice? Nope, we did it out of our own stubborn selfishness.
[So! The fact that god can already view each and every persons’ life paths and choices negates the logic as to why Hell would even exist. Hell is supposed to be a place created by god to “punish” those who don’t do what he wants them to do] Jesus spoke clearly about hell. Matthew 25:41 (NASB) “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; Hell was created for Lucifer and the rebel angels that ‘chose’ (there’s that word again) to follow him. Which leads to the next point about hell. People will be judged for 1 thing and 1 thing only concerning heaven and hell. What did they do with Jesus and His message. John 12:47-48 (NASB) “If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. “He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
[So 1) why would god punish those whose lives are pre-chosen and he created/planned, and 2) what would be the point of god creating humans if he already knows the outcome of the entire universe beforehand?] God didn’t ‘choose’ people and force them to do this or that. Man made the choice to sin. God provided a remedy and it is man’s freedom to accept or reject that remedy (Jesus’s atoning sacrifice).
Hope that helps!
Jekyll (Sometimes Hyde)
[end quote]
With all due respect, you seem to have completely ignored my point and what I said. If god can see a person’s life from beginning to end, that means his life path is fixed (ie. linear). This means since that person’s life is fixed, it is pre-chosen. Which, in turn, means they have no free will. From that person’s view, since they cannot know or see their own future, they appear to be freely making their own choices but in fact their free will is merely an illusion. The moment a single person’s life path can be clearly seen in full, their free will goes right out the door. So if god can see each and every person’s life, then they have no free will. People cannot see their own future. So if anything, by making this so, god merely gives people the ILLUSION of free will by not allowing them to be able to see their future. The only way a person can have free will is if they had the ability to go back in time at will and change any choices they make.
Also god’s omniscience reaches eternally through time, forward and back. So a trillion centuries ago god would have known that we would get drunk and rob a 7-11 and/or would run a red light and kill that family of 4. But there’s only one outcome that could be possible with robbing 7-11: either we do it or we don’t. It’s not a matter of free-willed choice. And god would already know which choice we would make, since he is all-knowing. Which makes our lives linear.
It’s a simple elementary concept:
a) God sees our complete lives and choices we make, b) making our lives linear, c) meaning no free will.
So god could not give people free will unless he was not omniscient.
RE: Hell, I’m not challenging the fact that the Bible speaks regarding Hell. My point is that the idea of Hell existing is nonsensical. If god was omniscient and knew every single fate of every single being since the beginning of time (and prior, if god has existed for eternity (which I won’t even get to the ridiculousness of that right now)), it makes no sense for god to create Hell for ANY beings which already have a linear fate. Even the angels/Satan falling would have been pre-known by god. When god told Adam and Eve to not eat the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, would he, in is omniscience, not have seen that coming? (Stop making sense yet??) But when Adam and Eve ate the fruit, god decides to get all angry (why if he would have already known it was going to happen in the first place?) and decides to punish every human being thereafter. Even by mortal’s standards, if a person does something horrendous (not so horrendous as eating fruit, apparently) we don’t pass that blame on to their offspring (not moral people, anyway). God acts with complete childish, immoral tantrums. Now he “demands” that all worship him.
Which raises another issue…
Why would a god that already knows everything, sees everything, and can do anything…require worship? It’s like a person who has trillions of dollars at their disposal needing a job at McDonald’s.
I know, I know… You’re going to say something to the point that god’s motive cannot be understood by us mere mortals. That’s just something theists say to end an argument they cannot explain. Which is my point. The ideal of god is completely nonsensical. It is a poorly thought out idea at best.
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James: I have to run a few errands with my wife and so I won’t have time to respond this morning but will before the day’s over. Thanks: J (SH)
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Not a problem. :)
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James: You bring up an interesting point about your view of God. I understand how you are viewing it. I don’t see it that way however. (Surprising huh!). The fact God knows what we will choose doesn’t mean we don’t have free will, it just means he knows what we are going to choose. The game’s not ‘fixed’ so to speak.
Let’s go back to Adam & Eve for a moment. They had free choice to either do what God said or not. They made they choice do what they were told not to do. Satan and the 1/3 of the angels that followed him made the same choice. God had to create beings with the freedom to reject Him. He wanted beings that would freely choose to love him (through obedience). With out the freedom to choose to reject him, there is no freedom. If I was pursuing a woman that I desperately wanted to love me and respond to me, I would do everything I could to make her want to love me and be with me. Forcing her into a relationship where she ‘had’ to love me would not produce a loving relationship. Forced ‘love’ is no love at all. God gave Adam the authority, or governorship of the planet. He turned it over to Satan. Satan is running the planet for now. Jesus called him the ‘god of this world’. Look at the mess the world is in now. Man is the one making the decisions that are destroying the planet and the people on the planet, not God. This goes back to ancient times, before Adam and Eve, in the Jobian days.
Concerning Hell, Jesus pointed out the only sin people will be judged for is rejecting the salvation offered through the sacrifice of Christ. That is the only sin people will be judged for. They won’t be judged for Adultery, drinking, drugs, cussing, homosexuality or spitting on the sidewalk. The only sin that is judged is what you do or don’t do with the Words of Jesus.
John 16:8-11 (AMP) And when He comes, He will convict and convince the world and bring demonstration to it about sin and about righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God) and about judgment: About sin, because they do not believe in Me [trust in, rely on, and adhere to Me]; About righteousness (uprightness of heart and right standing with God), because I go to My Father, and you will see Me no longer; About judgment, because the ruler (evil genius, prince) of this world [Satan] is judged and condemned and sentence already is passed upon him.
One last point. I would never tell you “God’s ways are mysterious and we can’t understand them”. People that say that didn’t get that from the New Testament I read. Jesus is very pointed:
Matthew 7:7-8 (AMP) Keep on asking and it will be given you; keep on seeking and you will find; keep on knocking [reverently] and [the door] will be opened to you. For everyone who keeps on asking receives; and he who keeps on seeking finds; and to him who keeps on knocking, [the door] will be opened.
Jesus and the Apostle Paul are very clear on the fact of asking God and receiving answers. Now I would point out that an infinite God will not be known completely by a finite creature such as ourselves. Having said that, God does reveal to us so many things about Himself that as Paul said in Romans, we will have no excuse when we stand before him!
Hyde (Sometimes Jekyll)
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“The fact God knows what we will choose doesn’t mean we don’t have free will, it just means he knows what we are going to choose.”
It plainly does so. If god can see my entire life, that means my life choices are already made to him. If my life choices are already made, then I’m not really making the choices, they are already made. From my point of view, they are not. Because my view of my future is unknown and it IS ‘fixed’. Now I DO believe in free will, mainly because 1) I don’t believe in an omniscient being, and 2) (as far as I know) there are no people who can go back in time at-will and make changes.
Not only this, but if god already knew from the beginning of time which people would “fall” and which would “rise”, then it makes no sense that we even be here. A being who is all-knowing would have no reason to ever do anything. Creating a race of beings simply to ‘serve’ him would serve no purpose other than a cruel one. A being of infinite knowledge would be devoid of feelings. They would no be sad at death because it would’ve already been know eons beforehand. They would not feel happiness, or bitterness, or anger, or frustration because they’d known about it coming for eons beforehand.
The only reasoning a being would be served by creating a race of beings, giving them so-called free will, allowing them to make their own choices, giving them the ability to reason, then punishing them for using that god-given ability to disbelieve in him when he gifts them with logic and doesn’t ever bother to present himself using logical means, sending them to Hell for eternal torture and damnation, and rewarding those who blindly ignore all that is sane and logical… this all makes no sense. There’s no justification for a being who already knows the outcome.
Why play a game when you already know the outcome of every roll of the dice?
And you can’t say, “Well we just don’t have the minds to understand god’s reasoning.” That’s no argument and leads the discussion in to a useless empty hole (and quoting the Bible doesn’t work as it was written by a bunch of ‘men’ with VERY limited knowledge on the world and the universe who merely CLAIM that it’s the word of god. Not to mention, being filled with atrocities such as murder, genocide, misogyny, slavery, adultery, incest…all condoned by god himself). That’s why Christianity (and most religions) say their deity(ies) can do anything, know everything, but they’re invisible and undetectable, and when you try to reason them out you can’t understand them. It makes it impossible to “disprove”. Anyone can imagine some being up, which is proven by the creation of the Flying Spaghetti Monster (and myriad deities that exist/have existed (and probably will exist)).
You claim Adam and Eve had free will to obey him or not and they ‘chose’ not to. Why would god who is all-knowing place a tree right there bearing fruit, and say “don’t eat this” when he clearly knew they were going to beforehand. Then when they do, he get’s mad and curses ALL of human kind then after? All this torture just because they ate the fruit, of which god already knew they were going to eat. One can’t get mad about something they already knew for eternity beforehand was going to happen.
It’s like sitting a child down placing a glass of chocolate milk and a glass of sour, curdled milk in front of him. They give him the free-willed choice to drink whichever one they want. BUT what they don’t tell him is that if he drinks the good chocolate milk, they’re going to chain him up, place him in a dark closet for the rest of his life (but he’ll get free chocolate milk while he’s in there).
If anyone these days gives a child a choice like that they’re an atrocity. God is nothing but an atrocity, giving people free will to choose to believe or not believe, then throwing them in a lake of fire for eternity for simply applying that free will. There is no “goodly” outlook on this situation.
I’m a logical thinker. You can’t quote Bible verses to me in order to attempt to make sense when I view the Bible as a despicable book. You need to use logic and reasoning that would make sense. And that is impossible, because it does not. Religion requires blind faith, which is why they call it ‘taking a leap of faith’.
I’d might have more respect for Christianity if god were an imperfect being who was NOT omniscient and omnipotent. Who admitted he made mistakes now and then and was more ‘human’. God is a narcissistic, megalomaniac. Much like people such as Kim Jong Un, and his father Kim Jong Il. He’s a dictator who “frees himself and enslaves the people”.
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James: Why don’t you tell me how you REALLY feel! I know what I want to communicate about the free will topic but, I’m not saying it the way I want to. Let me have some time to think about this 👏 and let me get back with you. Most likely tomorrow. I appreciate your thoughts and time! Later …
Hyde (Sometimes Jekyll)
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“James: Why don’t you tell me how you REALLY feel!”
lol I’m just really blunt when it comes to religion. And very opinionated. :)
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I agree Graham. It’s akin to purposely creating bad art just so you can tear it up. It’s ridiculous.
God, being omniscient, supposedly knows every choice a person is going to make – even before creating that person. So why bother creating that person if you already know his or her destiny is one of eternal punishment(or the waste bin). Only a cold-hearted & cruel being could do such a thing.
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Wow! Valerie I am praying for you at this moment it is so sad to see one being so blinded by the darkness of the devil.
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Hi Cyndie – Do you have any idea how comments like this sound to former Christians?
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I think and hope I gave her plenty to think about concerning her words and how they sound to former Xians. If she truly follows her own book, that is, if she even reads it, and follows it as she believes she does, maybe she will see her words are not at all love. Doesn’t matter if I’m an apostate turned humanist or that you are a former Xian, her words are nothing but judging and hatred. She is the one who is blind and walking in darkness. She’s definitely cherry picking if she believes she following the Bile. We did it too when we were Xians, but I must say, 1 Corinthians 13 was one picked and made every effort to follow, as well the verses that said to not judge, lest ye be judge. I did my utmost best to adhere to those verses, not ones that spewed hate, judgement, or denied people of their humanity, esp after I left home and went from Church of God to the Episcopal Church. I despised the more vile verses and chapters. Still do as a humanist now, but I haven’t forgotten where I came from and what I went through on my journey out of Xianity. I probably still know the Bible, as well as other religious texts, far better than she knows the Bible.
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there are no former christians
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C, I would invite you to visit ExChristian.net and read some of the testimonies there and see what you think.
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Wow, that is so funny, I got a really good chuckle out of that one. The old satan will get in the end trick. Holy crap, I recall hearing such nonsense when I was 7 years old, now at 67 I hear still hear the same nonsense. People who cannot believe in themselves somehow feel obliged to believe in somethign else, in this cas ea god-myth. The reality of llife is that this is a school of learning, and a kindergarten school at that. We are here as a result of the creation of our beings by another being whom had dreams that he could not materialize and discovered one day that it could do that by creating other beings with creative powers just like the ones he has. Thus he materialzied his dreams into energy gestalts, beings of equal creative potential as himself. Those beings then go on their way creating other beings and so on, it seems a never ending story with multidimensional potentials ever more. The beauty is that each being has the freedom of choice to do as they please In our particular physical universe freedom of choice means that when you arrive at the 7-11 you can rob the store, leave the store, buy some stuff from the store, burn the stoer down, stop your friend from robbing the sotre, turn left at the last red light you arrived at and turn right instead thus going somewhere else, being stopped by a cop for speeding, etc. etc. those are all chocies are are in fact made in a muliverse and multidimensioanl world. We make all of those choices and others, and we, as creative beings, follow each path down its unlimited road and are happy just creating along the way; just like the little girl of boy that all of a sudden starts running across the grass and yells out loud just for the pure joy of “living”, that is freedom of choice. Looking at our earth is rather myopic and extremely limiting; one needs to expand your view of the creative potential of all beings. To think otherwise is self-limiting and in my view a poor choice.
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How can you be a former Christian? Either you are one or are not…every part of the Word of God is to be read and read in its context and it my prayer is that someday you will see the real truth of the love of God in your life and not feel hatred or condemnation. It saddens my heart to see you only looking at the negative, God has said things in His Word so that we would change our lives to be more like Him. My desire is to walk with God faithfully and love Him with all my heart, all my soul, all my strength and all my mind and when do this we are all in. It does not sound like you are all in.
Do you have any idea how you are causing a stumbling block to those who might be seeking the truth and looking for the love of God. God has loved us so much that He gave His all for us at least we can do is live our lives for Him in obedience and have a passion to walk with Him and have an intimate relationship with Him. How sad that you name the Name of Christ but are so blinded from the truth of God. My prayer is that you will draw close to God and realize the love and compassion He has for you as His child.
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Why don’t you take a page out of your own book: Matthew 7:1 http://biblehub.com/matthew/7-1.htm As well as Luke 6:37, 6:41 (Please do get that mote out of your own eye), John 8:7 (I don’t believe you are without sin, because you are human), Romans 2:1 (I do believe you just condemned yourself, by judging Valerie as you do. How do you know she was never a Xian?), 14:10, 14:13, and James 4:11.
Instead, why not practice 1 Corinthians 13 and pursue love, instead spewing hate and judgement. If anyone is “causing a stumbling block” it is you with your judging and hated. Why should anyone want to follow your deity when you showing nothing but judging and hate, instead of love and compassion? You are not showing love and compassion. 3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, 5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, 6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth; 7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. 8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.… You can read the rest for yourself, but then maybe you haven’t put away childish things, probably because you are human and enjoy seeking what you consider flaws in others, without looking at yourself first.
I know Valerie was once a Xian, just as I know that I too am an apostate. I suggest that you sit down and actually read the book you believe tells about your god- from the very beginning to the very end Genesis 1:1 to the end of Revelations. I would also suggest reading other religious texts too, including and esp the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of the Egyptians, and other religious texts outside of Xianity (Yes, at one time, before Rome took over, the Gnostic Gospels were once part of Xianity, depending on the sect the Xian was a member of, which wouldn’t hurt you to study either. You never know if the Gnostic view of Christ is correct (we are all Christ crucified). If Joseph Campbell’s words about the Gnostic Christ is correct, then you just crucified “Christ” with your words.
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(No edit button) but I wanted to add, as well as just got judge backed.
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You have blasphemed the name of Christ and I am praying for the salvation of your soul, it seems that you know the Bible but do not know who God is. Have you really accepted Jesus into you heart as the Lord over your life I pray for you and the Bible is not a book it is God’s Word. I did not come here to argue but to point others to the cross and it saddens me to see so many reject the real truth of God.
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Wow…I no longer am responding because you have been blinded and are judging me but there is nothing in the Bible that is offensive to those who walk with God and I know where my destiny is and I have done nothing wrong and I do not have a mote to get out of my eye because my heart is right before God. How on earth can someone say how does it look to someone who use to be a Christian either you are or you are not, I cannot find this place as a place that encourages spiritual growth but is one that puts people down I desire to see others through the eyes of Jesus while you desire to put other down so you can “think you are right”
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Here is a comment thread at ExChristian.net in which a number of people share their experiences. I think if you read it, you would have a pretty honest sense of the sort of folks who see themselves as exChristians. The article itself is written by a believer. http://new.exchristian.net/2014/12/crippling-beliefs-of-christianity.html
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Hi Cindi – There are several of us here on this comment thread who used to believe as you do. People who had prayed the sinner’s prayer, who experienced transformation, who felt a deep love and gratitude toward Jesus, some of whom spoke in tongues. We now believe that there are natural, normal explanations for all of those experiences. You can find testimonies at ExChristian.net
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I believe you are causing a stumbling block to those who desire to honor God and His Word. This is what Ezekiel 23:20 really means and the KJV has gracefully left out the details as the NIV has changed the Word of God.
It’s pretty obvious from the outset that Ezek 23 is a parable which uses the “whorish” behaviour of a pair of women as a metaphor for the unfaithful and ungodly behaviours of Israelites from two nations; “Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.”
I believe that the biblical interpretation would tell us that the message of Ezekiel 23 is as a warning to the nations of Earth to not be godless in our actions toward other nations, or God will give permission for the other nations to kill the former.
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I don’t believe she’s causing a stumbling block for anyone. I think it’s better to know all POVs and not just one, in order to make a decision for oneself. To just hear the Xian opinion and not the opinions of former Xians, as well as those who were never Xian, is not thinking for oneself. In fact, to insist only on the thoughts of Xians is imposing that view on others (even your own children), instead of allowing them to make their own decisions. I would dare say, to not allow the opinions and thoughts of others, who don’t agree with you, is causing a stumbling block.
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There are not point of views there is the truth of God’s Word and His Word only. There is only one way to heaven and that is through God’s Son Jesus and not to speak untruths about it, that is a tool of the devil and even the devil knows the Bible and what you are saying is not glorifying to God. I pray for the salvation of your soul to say there are many point of views shows others that you do not believe in the one way to God…I am praying for you and feel so bad for your blindness towards the real gospel.
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Yes, I used to think that too.
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Yes, I did too, even on a couple of occasions, one Catholic, the other Protestant Evangelical. To the first, it was the secular stories about the BIG C that got me thinking and leaving. To the second, I’d just say, “Methinks they doth protest too much” and what were they protesting? Those damned socialists who tried to ensure some justice for the poor, some of whom even belonged to churches, (but predictably the wrong kind so that didn’t count: they weren’t saved).
You know, instead of all those arguments and discussions about who’s right, who’s wrong and who’s just plain fooling themselves, there is a simple, fool proof test for anyone who calls himerself a believer: in the name of Jesus, do just one single miracle Jesus emphatically said you would do if you truly believed in him. It’s in the instruction manual, I’ve read it. I’ve also tried it: it doesn’t work, and I’ve observed that it never works, except as TV entertainment called misdirection. It’s a complete dud, folks. So if “Jesus” can’t be trusted to empower his disciples to do something as simple as a miracle of healing on a physical body (and personally I’d settle for a high-end bottle of wine from a bottle of Perrier), how could anyone trust him for something as serious and delicate as one’s eternal salvation? That’s one hell of a pig in a poke to buy!
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How glibly “born again” Christians bandy the “truth of God’s Word” when there’s no risk involved, except the desperate attempt to foster guilt upon those who do not know, nor want to know “God’s Word” and those who have known it and unilaterally rejected it. Since the only proof of “God’s Word” in action is borne by “His People” – the born again believers, then “the fault, dear Brutus, lies not in the stars (God) but in ourselves, that we are underlings.) You will, I’m sure know that quote. Since there is no “living” God but what God-believers proclaim and maintain, the only other “proof” being a book that can’t hold itself together except as a talisman, then let me put it to you this way: Do you truly believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?” Then demonstrate this by one single unchallengeable act: accomplish just one single miracle of healing – one that cannot be misinterpreted, being so obvious – according to the very specific promises made by Jesus for anyone who truly believes in him. If you cannot do that, then I would suggest keeping very quiet about what you really believe. It’s OK for anyone to believe anything s/he chooses to believe, but it’s NOT OK to foist that belief upon others who make it very clear they want nothing to do with it. If you want to prove your faith, go and DO works of faith. “Faith without works is dead.” Give your life to service of the poor. Remember the proof of discipleship: If anyone does not hate his mother or father, his children, even his own life (I’m not quoting verbatim, time being pressing, but I certainly remember!) he (she!) CANNOT BE MY DISCIPLE. I suggest to all pompous Christ salvation pushers to put that and quite a few other choice passages on discipleship attributed to their Jesus into their pipe and take some serious puffs on it. Inhale deeply so it doesn’t become just more Christian smoke.
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think of it as a challenge to defend your faith
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I need some advice: My brother-in-law’s (BIL) new girlfriend (GF) of two years has him brainwashed to the point where his past views have been completely turned on their head. Now she is forcing fundamentalist Christian beliefs upon my teenaged niece – who is a smart, well-read young adult who happens to like things like The Magic Eightball, etc. We unwittingly got her a fortune teller’s tea cup as a present, and I got messages from the GF that came off completely insane. She rambled about how this type of thing doesn’t fly with them because they all believe “In God, In Christ”. And that’s how they are raising “their” daughter (not married). She threw our present in the trash and punished my niece for it. This newly found fanaticism is news to us, and we have not heard a peep out of my BIL. Looking back, he’s been pulled away from the family since this woman came into the picture. All the clues point to text-book mind control. We are looking for a tactful approach that won’t get our niece punished for our concern that she’s being psychologically abused. We know that she’s a non-believer, and the GF forces her to pray and gives “God” credit for EVERYTHING that she does – good grades,etc. The niece is developing a healthy anxiety disorder and begs her mom to not get involved – so she can keep the peace. We are taking note of that. However, the Christ-living GF seems really unhinged and I’m really worried that something bad will happen.
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Yikes. I’m so sorry. I’m not sure you have the power to do anything, but her mother may. The anxiety disorder might offer legal grounds for a new parenting agreement. The same would be true of emotional abuse, although it is difficult to prove, especially if a child is trying to keep the peace.
Your options depend in part on whether your niece has also bought into this belief system. Teenagers often have the legal authority to request changes in parenting plans, either formally or informally. Quite often a kid who is going back and forth between homes hits the point that they say, “No more. I’m in high school (or middle school), and I want to live in one home now.” If you get time with your niece, you might find a way to let her know this–along with any options that might be open to her in the extended family, in case she reaches that point. In your situation, I might also explain that it is not unusual for people who get sucked into fundamentalist cults to behave like the girlfriend (or her dad?) and that there are books about it if she ever wants to know more. Let her know that there’s support online too for teens and adults who are having harmful experiences with “toxic religion” or “extreme religion.” I would let her know how incredibly powerful a belief system like that can be and that it can be very hard even for a smart, loving parent to see their way out.
If I were the mom, depending on the circumstances, I might decide to fight even if my daughter was asking me not to. As many stories at exChristian.net attest, it can take years to heal from religious harm. A well screened counselor for Mom might be a good idea. Alternately, a smart counselor who is hired to help with the anxiety symptoms might be able to address the underlying dynamics.
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Ask her about it. it is not mind control, it is the power of the holy spirit
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Thank you so much for your insight.
No, she is not buying into any of it. Her entire existence with this woman is a complete charade. She has no privacy, and we are not even sure that the dad knows the extent of psychological manipulation is going on between the GF and daughter. GF lies to her, and tells her that she feels like she’s “competing” with her for BIL’s attention. Neice is counting the days till she turns eighteen (less than a year) so she can get out of there. Basically, the outcome that they are looking for with these so-called “Christian values” is completely backfiring.
The mother has been keeping quiet because her daughter would be punished for anything that could leak out regarding these issues. There was a messy divorce a few years back, so anything she says is incendiary. This is why we think that my husband may be the only one to address the concern; to at least bring about the conversation. That way, the niece is kept completely out of it to protect her. It hasn’t been easy, but I’m keeping my mouth shut! :)
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It takes more faith not to believe.and the NIV bible takes away verses.(js) yes the bible looks down on women but who didn’t before women had any rights? is it really that hard to believe that there was rape,murder,and abuse back then?what world are you living in cause it happens everyday.
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Your defense of the Bible seems to be that the Bible is no worse than the context it was written in. I think I’ll let that stand.
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The difference is that the Bible condones all this. God condones it, even demands it. It’s not a comparison that, “It happens today, it happened then”. It’s much worse. God shows his true colors. God mimics the men of the time who were misogynistic and bigoted. God mimics these men because it was they who created God in their own image. It takes MORE faith to believe because it is but pure faith that is required to believe. There is not science, no common sense. You can only believe in God via faith. If you follow God, then you’re simply following the men of the time who created him, who believed in misogyny, racism, sexism, slavery, etc.
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I have spent the last hour reading these comments. I have been a believer for the last 15 yrs. I have tried so much to dismiss all the contradictions ive come across, but no matter what i cannot dismiss them. I have finally started to openly question Christianity and I have been repeatedly told to “just have faith.” Did any of you who used to believe have a hard time letting go of Christianity? The thought of leaving it scares me and frees me all at the same time. How did you handle this?
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Hi Alisha –
You happened to catch me online. :) So many of us are on similar journeys, and yet each one is a little different. My Christian beliefs coupled with an eating disorder took me to the brink of suicide when I was a college student at Wheaton. But over time, as I struggled to hold together the moral and rational contradictions in my evangelical born-again type Christianity I evolved a more and more idiosyncratic form of faith. By the time I got tired of making excuses for God, I realized there really wasn’t much else left.
Have you run across the website exChristian.net? Many people have shared their stories and struggles there, and some are very kind about offering ideas and support.
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It wasn’t christianity that drove you to suicide. Explain to me exactly what christianity is.
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Born and raised in what I call deeply fundamental Catholicism, rebelled and returned to evangelical Christianity, with no better results, I finally took it all to “God” with a DEMAND for explanations as to why “He” tolerated the so blatant hypocrisy extant in all Christian denominations. No answer, no explanations, and that did it for me. If “God” can’t be bothered, what do I care what people who violate every precepts and justify themselves using a blind, dead and dumb “God” have to say? “God” is successful precisely because “He” does nothing! It’s all about what people, particularly the insidious priestly class says. I am not an atheist – I know by some deeply known awareness that although “God” as bandied about today is a man-made concept, there is something behind it all, and that “something” is both, good and evil. God is a collective of powers. Religion is power-hungry men trying to use those powers to their advantage over the gullible. That said, I find it sad that with all the attempts made on these pages and others to counsel people on how to deal with leaving religion, that nothing is ever mentioned about self-empowerment. That is the only answer to man’s ever-present problems of social interaction. Self empowerment answers your questions. Believe in nothing but yourself. That pushes the individual to exceed her/himself because it is based on constant self-introspection and self-correction. One no longer looks for support groups, or gurus, or leaders: one looks to oneself, period. Understanding of the social condition can only come from self-empowerment. That is a given.
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Actually your being here alive at this point in time indicates He has done considerably more than you credit Him with. You probably want to think about the universe, our solar system, our planet, and indeed your life to know that there is a whole lot going on behind the scenes than you’re admitting as if God should directly answer we mere mortals with our questions. He took the time to create the entire universe and all that is in it, andddd He even wrote a book for everyone to understand Him in our current human capacity. I’d say head back to the Bible and read what He’s written to you as your question(s) are answered in it. You’ll find out that you have even been coded with an interest in searching for your Creator, which is why you mentioned there being something behind it all about God. :-)
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Hi Robert, I find it stunningly amazing that anyone can still claim that “the bible” is an actual record of “god” speaking to mankind when even a cursory reading of this collection of questionable and pseudo-historical, allegorical and mythical stories actually make god (your god?) seem like a total idiot, and utterly ineffectual in guiding and protecting one race, the Jews, never mind the rest of the planet, most of which knows nothing about the bible, and never, never mind the rest of the universe and beyond.
There are a number of statements made by god in the bible that demonstrate his abysmal ignorance of what constitutes life; what the universe looks like and even what shape the earth takes. These points have been mentioned here and are exposed all over the internet if anyone cares to look it up. One source is Sam Harris, “Letter to a Christian Nation” (2006)
Think about this: your god created everything ,and nothing exists that god didn’t make. That has to include all the evil ever thought up by man (and whatever mythical demonic entities the biblical writers invented for their pages); includes wars, epidemics, famines, droughts and floods. Speaking of floods, the bible makes it abundantly clear that god (your god, YHWH) was intent on committing total genocide in launching the great flood. The evidence for god being an evil entity is overwhelming in the bible alone, never mind in logical observation.
You say that me being alive indicates god has done more than I give him credit for. Well, first of all, was I consulted about this very personal happening? Do I actually enjoy being here, living in this divinely mandated insane asylum, aware that more than 40,000 innocents die daily of preventable causes; watching the slaughter in Palestine, mayhem in Africa, chaos in the Arab nations; endless wars, pollution, earthquakes and whatever other catastrophes make up man’s daily bread? Think again. This is not a nice place you got here, Robert, and if your god is responsible for it all, then I was right to challenge him to his stony face.
The real problem is that your god is a stone idol (or plastic, or technological projection these days); a man-made god that cannot do anything but whose followers credit with everything, or if they can get away with it, with doing all the good things and whitewashing him of responsibility for the bad things. Since this entity is utterly powerless, it cannot stop the liars; the multi-millionaire evangelists and truck and trade of religion. They are the ones who manipulate the strings, and they don’t even have to do it behind a façade: they’re in your face, lying, stealing, fornicating – doing all the things the “unsaved” are blamed for doing – and that’s not a well-kept secret.
Go tell a Graham or a Robertson or an Ahmanson to “sell your possessions, give to the poor and follow me” – which is a clear commandment of Jesus, and see if you survive the counter-attack.
If your god can’t clean up the mess in his own house; if he can’t get his own followers to obey him, what business does he have imposing his will on the rest of us who, for good reason, want nothing more to do with him or his heaven?
People who insist that god is good and that the bible tells them so should remember this definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different result.
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God does care, he just did not create us to be puppets.
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Leviticus 25:44 KJV
Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.
Lol wrong
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Pingback: What is my religion? I probably don’t have one. | Joe the UU Guuy
This quote from Leviticus is one that the expansionist, genocidal Zionists are using today to justify decimating Palestinians in their own traditional lands. It was also one of the lines used by Americans to decimate and devastate the millions who once peopled the entire surface of the USA. Very useful book, the Bible and a very useful supreme deity, that Christian/Jewish god.
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I have wrestled with this subject as many have and my conclusion is that The Bible when used as the unquestionable source of one’s belief is indefensible because of it’s obvious bizarre commands. This always becomes the crux of the matter when Christians try to defend it. The teachings of peace, love and non violence come from many philosophers and for most are hard to discredit.
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Sounds like a cafeteria bible believer.
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Well, when you understand the Bible as an imperfect document written and assembled by imperfect humans, that is the only wise approach. But I do wish more people filtered for love and truth rather than simply reinforcing some of their (our) worst tendencies.
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Sorry, no. Humans wrote it, but it was inspired by God.
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Hello.
We could spend a year on each line referenced! But let me attempt an overview:
1. The BIBLE doesn’t condone slavery or poor treatment of women but rather it RECORDS what was happening. If we were honest we can see these very things still happening today in humanity. The Old Testament shows us humanity. The good the bad and the ugly of it.
2. The Old Testament also shows us God’s hope for humanity. And how humanity can not ultimately reach the hope of God’s heart on their own.
3. The Old Testament shows God’s laws. Some are protective like ” don’t eat bottom dwelling fish. ” we know they are scavengers and carry disease at times. Old Testament times did not know this but if they just ” followed the law of God” they would be protected. ( one small example amoung many).
So what can man do to reach the hope that God has for him? He can’t possibly follow the details in the Law of God. He would have to be perfect… And the stories in the Old Testament reveal the crazy ugly imperfection of mankind!!
The answer is in the New Testament.
1. As promised in the Old Testament God would send help.
2. He sent help in and through Jesus ( God in person)
3. Though Jesus did not address slavery and treatment of women and other such social ills Jesus did say if we followed him with true hearts we wouldn’t be able to own another human being or treat our girls like second class humans. Jesus actually equalized slaves and women and Jews and Gentiles by declaring there are no male or females or Jews or Gentiles or slaves or masters in the eyes of God. ( there are indeed some religions that will not even allow women to go to school or drive or work to this very day) but this is not what Christ taught. Even if some ” Christians” act in these ways they would be hard pressed to show supportive scripture for their behaviors!
4. So to know the heart of God is to know the ENTIRETY of scripture, not just a few verses that on their own might seem ugly. Context. Practices of the generations past. Word meanings in various languages. Many things can change the meaning of what might appear pretty ugly on the surface. Gosh! ” I want you to eat, Jane ” is so very different without the comma!!!!!
Approaching the Bible with anger, disgust, and condemnation for it’s contents without knowing it’s contents fully is somewhat unfair. A serious search of what the Bible actually means in the words that were recorded, with a heart of real curiosity to know what the heck these “horrible Christians” find so amazing might just yield a true understanding on a spiritual level that would change a seeker’s life!!!!
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Thanks, Jordan. But you do realize that I’ve already drunk that Kool-Aid, as have most of the people here? The Bible not only condones slavery and poor treatment of women, it commands both. Also, if you read Bart Ehrman, for example, you might find an interesting window into who actually wrote the Bible, and why.
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I have read Ehrman and Bart is easily refuted. Some of Bart’s conclusions seem to outrun the evidence — even the evidence that he himself cites. Consider that Bart is looking at the same evidence every other textual critic looks at. He’s “discovered” nothing new. Yet, hardly anyone goes to the extreme Bart goes to in his conclusions.
One of Ehrman’s teachers at Princeton, was Bruce Metzger. Metzger came to much more conservative conclusions than Ehrman — yet looked at the exact same evidence. The vast majority of textual critics are closer to Metzger than Ehrman. Even the most liberal textual critics grant that at least 95% of the text of the New Testament is not in question.
Christianity did more to abolish slavery and even the Jim Crow laws in the US than socialism ever did. Think Wilberforce, Harriet Tubman , Newton, Martin Luther King, Methodists, Quakers, Congregationalists and various evangelical groups played noted roles. In Georgia, primitive Methodists united with brethren elsewhere in condemning slavery. Many evangelical leaders in the United States such as Presbyterian Charles Finney and Theodore Weld, and women such as Harriet Beecher Stowe (daughter of abolitionist Lyman Beecher) and Sojourner Truth motivated hearers to support abolition. Finney preached that slavery was a moral sin, and so supported its elimination. “I had made up my mind on the question of slavery, and was exceedingly anxious to arouse public attention to the subject. In my prayers and preaching, I so often alluded to slavery, and denounced it as sin.” In 1787 the Society for Effecting the Abolition of the Slave Trade was formed, with 9 of the 12 founder members being Quakers. During the same year, William Wilberforce was persuaded to take up their cause; as an British MP, Wilberforce was able to introduce a bill to abolish the slave trade.
Despite such determined opposition, many Methodist, Baptist, and Presbyterian members freed their slaves and sponsored black congregations, in which many black ministers encouraged slaves to believe that freedom could be gained during their lifetime. After a great revival occurred in 1801 at Cane Ridge, Kentucky, American Methodists made anti-slavery sentiments a condition of church membership.Roman Catholic efforts extended to the Americas. The Roman Catholic leader of the Irish in Ireland, Daniel O’Connell, supported the abolition of slavery in the British Empire and in America. With the black abolitionist Charles Lenox Remond, and the temperance priest Theobold Mathew, he organized a petition with 60,000 signatures urging the Irish of the United States to support abolition. O’Connell also spoke in the United States for abolition. A postal campaign in 1835 by the American Anti-Slavery Society, founded by African-American Presbyterian clergyman Theodore S. Wright sent bundles of tracts and newspapers (over 100,000) to prominent clerical, legal, and political figures throughout the whole country, and culminated in massive demonstrations throughout the North and South.
Although opportunists sometimes used scripture to justify owning slaves this is only the tip of the iceberg of a more accurate picture of how Christianity really has impacted slavery in history.
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God never condoned any sin mankind does but since the fall of man from grace he works within the sphere we have created through sin. Slavery was not his plan but again mankind in his sinful nature has created a whole total package dealing with the evilness of the heart. To enslave other is a heartfelt sin.
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Excuses, excuses.
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This commentary written by David Meager on Slavery in Bible times seems to hit the nail squarely on the head.
Article reprinted from Cross†Way Issue Autumn 2006 No. 102
(C)opyright Church Society; material may be used for non-profit purposes provided that the source is acknowledged and the text is not altered.
SLAVERY IN BIBLE TIMES
by David Meager
2007 is an important year in the British calendar as it marks the two hundredth anniversary of the
abolition of the British slave trade. This article will examine the history and practice of the slave
trade in the ancient world and compare this with the Bible’s teaching on slavery.
Ancient World SlaverySlavery seems to have been a common practice in many ancient societies such as Egypt, China and the Middle East. Most slaves originated from the spoils of war, kidnap or voluntarily to pay for debts. The treatment of slaves varied in the ancient world, but in most cases slaves were the property of the master, with little or no rights or status. This meant that many were treated harshly,although most ancient societies had some laws to regulate slavery, such as the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi (1750 BC).Slavery allowed in the Old Testament.
Some people are shocked that slavery was an accepted practice in the Old Testament. However, it must be remembered that the slavery sanctioned in the bible is very different to the slavery that
occurred in the Americas in the 17th and 18th Centuries which is perhaps the popular view of
slavery. Old Testament treatment of slaves was also generally more humane than the slavery
practiced in other ancient civilizations.
The first possible reference to slavery in the Old Testament could be in Genesis 9 v26 & 27 where
Noah cursed Canaan for Ham’s sin by prophesying that he would serve his brothers. Both
Abraham and Isaac kept servants, but the first clear example of slavery is in Exodus 1 v13 where
the Israelites were made to work ruthlessly as slaves and their cry for rescue came up to God (2
v23-24). The kind of slavery the Israelites were subjected to in Egypt was clearly unacceptable to
God, judging by their rescue and the regulations regarding slavery in the Mosaic Law.
Slavery in the Mosaic Law After the Israelite’s had fled Egypt they were given the Mosaic Law which allowed them to make slaves of Hebrews and foreigners.Hebrew Slaves The Israelites were to treat their enslaved fellow Hebrews as if they were servants. (Lev 25 v39-40).
They were also to give them the option of their freedom in the 7th year of their service (Ex 21 v2),
and give them the means to make a new start (Deut 15 v12-18), although they could remain a slave if they chose.
Anyone who stole a man and put him to slavery (Ex 21 v16) was to be put to death. There were
various laws dealing with physical abuse of slaves (Ex 21 v20 & 26), and slaves who ran away
from their masters were to be welcomed and not returned. (Deut 23.15).
Foreign Slaves
The Israelites were allowed to buy slaves from the nations around them (Lev. 25 v44) and keep
them indefinitely as slaves (Lev 25 v44-46), however they were included in the commonwealth of
Israel on circumcision (Gn 17 v13), could share in festivals (Deut 16.11), including the Passover
(Ex 12 v44) and were given the Sabbath rest (Ex 20 v10).
Reasons for slavery
If an Israelite fell upon hard times they could offer to work for someone else who would in turn
look after them (Lev 25 v39). If a thief was caught and could not make restitution then they were to be sold for the theft (Ex 22: v3). Debtors who went bankrupt could be forced to sell their children into slavery (2 Kings 4 v1). These reasons all apply to Hebrew slaves, however, it is difficult to say why the bible allowed them to take foreign slaves. Maybe it was a way of dealing with prisoners of war rather than killing them? Perhaps they needed slaves to prosper as a nation? Both these reasons could apply to David putting the conquered Ammonites to forced labour (2 Sam. 12.31)?
Slavery in the New Testament.
Throughout classical history slavery was taken for granted and the experience of slaves in the
Roman and Greek cultures was mixed. The majority of slaves were employed in domestic service in households and could expect an easier life than those slaves working on the land, in mines or on ships. Greek law protected slaves, and though a slave’s master had the right to beat him, a number of moral and cultural restraints generally prevented the excessive use of force. Greek slaves had some opportunities for emancipation.
In Roman society the experience of slaves varied depending on their master and the work assigned to them. Some slaves were made to work hard and could be disciplined ruthlessly for minor mistakes, whilst others placed in large villas could have little work to do and were well looked after. Sometimes rich masters kept more slaves than necessary to display their wealth. It is estimated that at the time of Augustus, the richest 5 per cent of Roman citizens owned 1 million slaves, another 2 million slaves were employed elsewhere out of a total population of 7.5 million.
The condition of slaves gradually improved with time, as both Greek and Roman cultures were
probably influenced by Stoicism, which regarded all men as equal, and both were certainly
influenced by Christianity. Claudius (Emperor 41 – 54 AD) ruled that if an old or sick slave was
abandoned, they became free. Under Nero (Emperor 54 – 68 AD) slaves gained the right to
complain against their masters in court. Under Antoninus Pius (Emperor 138 – 168 AD), a slave
could claim his freedom if treated cruelly, and a master who killed his slave without just cause
could go on trial for murder. It also became more difficult for a person to fall into slavery under
Roman law. By the time of Diocletian (Emperor 284 – 305 AD), free men could not sell themselves or their children into slavery. Roman slaves also had opportunities for emancipation and some rose high in the ranks of Roman society.
New Testament teaching
Into this culture the apostle Paul addressed masters and slaves in many of his letters. Again the
bible does not condemn slavery, but instead was counter cultural in the way slaves and masters
were to treat each other. Rather than masters treating their slaves harshly, or slaves disobeying their masters, both were to act in accordance with their new life in Christ. Slaves were to obey their masters, whilst masters were to treat their slaves fairly. Paul was not opposed to the freedom of slaves if the opportunity arose (1 Cor 7 v21) but believed that God had called people to different stations in life and they were to live out the Christian life in the situation in which they were called (1 Cor 7). For slaves to disobey their masters would have caused God’s name to be reviled (1 Tim 6 v1). Slaves were to please God by their service (Eph 6v5-8 Col 3 v22) and the brotherly love with a believing master should be another reason for serving him well (1 Tim 6 v2). Masters were to treat their slaves well because they both had the same
master in heaven with whom there is no partiality (Col 4 v1).
However, in a list of the lawless and disobedient (1Tim 1v10), the New Testament condemns those who take people captive to sell them into slavery, which is consistent with Old Testament Law.
In Paul’s letter to Philemon, he urges Philemon to receive back the runaway slave Onesimus as a
brother (v16), but Paul does not command him to be released from slavery.
The early church teaching on slavery.
Not surprisingly, the early church followed New Testament teaching on slavery, below are some
quotes from some early church fathers.
To masters:
‘You will not issue orders with bitterness to your maidservant or your man-servant, who trust in the same God.’ Barnabas c 70-130.
To slaves:
‘Let them not long to be set free at the communal expense. Otherwise, they may be found to be
slaves to their own desires.’ Ignatius c.105
To servants and masters:
‘Servants, when they have believed, should serve their fleshly masters the better. In the Epistle of
Paul to the Ephesians, it says: “Servants, obey your fleshly masters with fear and trembling.”…
Moreover, masters should be the more gentle. Also in the same place, it says: “And you masters, do the same things to them, forbearing anger.” Cyprian c.250.
However, they asserted the dignity and equality of each other in God’s sight even though slaves:
‘If any Christians have male or female slaves or children and persuade them to become Christians, they are to call them brothers, without any distinction.’ Aristides c.125
‘Domestic servants, too, are to be treated like ourselves. For they are human beings, as we are.
God is the same to free and slave.’ Clement of Alexandria c.195.
Christians even willingly offered themselves up as slaves to help other Christians:
‘We know many among ourselves who have given themselves up to slavery, in order that they could ransom others. Many others have surrendered themselves to slavery, so that with the price that they received for themselves, they might provide food for others’. Clement of Rome. c.96
Conclusion
Throughout biblical times slavery was a common practice. The bible does not condemn slavery but has clear teaching on how slaves should be treated, which was often counter-cultural to the
practices of surrounding nations. Biblical slavery amongst Jews was often an act of mercy to
provide for the poor rather than an act of exploitation. The bible condemns the abuse of slaves and the forced enslavement of people and slaves were to be treated well in both Old and New
Testaments.
David Meager is a member of the Church Society staff team.
The next article will look at the history of slavery since the early church, the founding of the slave
trade in the Americas, the abolitionist movement, and slavery today
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Hi Nick C,
Noticed your comments concerning the abolishment of slavery. From ancient times, even before Christianity, there has been instances where people have sought to abolish slavery. Likewise, when Christianity came on the scene, there were still instances where some sought its abolishment. However, just because a small number of Christians went against the grain during its first 1500 yrs or so – by attempting to abolish slavery – doesn’t mean Christianity, on the whole, was against slavery; no, it was quiet the opposite. Slavery, the concept of slave and master, along with the submission to authority is one of the central themes of the bible; even the Jesus character uses slavery to depict the relationship between man and the biblical god(Jesus portrays god as a master who beats his disobedient slaves with many stripes.) There are simply far too many texts within the bible that explicitly condone slavery; to pretend otherwise it would be intellectually dishonest.
Lets not forget it was Christians who, for the greatest part of their history, made slavery legally acceptable; it was influenced and justified via the bible. And few found it morally wrong. The greatest opposition to its abolishment, of coarse, also came from Christians.
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Show me where in the Bible it says either of those things are ok
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niether of those were condoned in the bible. Show me were you think they were. Besides it is never to late to turn around.
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Don’t drink the kool-aide. Drink the living water.
It is so hard to show someone something that can not be put under a microscope and examined. Like love. Can’t dissect it. Can’t put it under a microscope. But those of us who have experienced it know it exists and no one can talk us out of it!
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You do realize that I publish comments like yours so that other people can see what biblical Christianity does to people’s thinking?
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If you want to do that, at least accept other peoples arguments. I could explain almost half of the stuff you posted without looking it up probs, and I am only 12. Ask a pastor in person about this and give them a day in between arguments if you really want to know. They can show you places that say you are wrong. Context.
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I could explain it all too. And then I kept asking questions and the context and answers I had learned didn’t work very well for me anymore. Most atheists in America are former Christians. I was born again for over 20 years.
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since i cannot reply to your comment below, i will reply here. I am so sorry for you, and i will be praying for you. i do not say that to be corny or anything, but it is true. I don’t understand how you can be an atheist right now. By the way, once you have believed in the one true God, nothing can take you out of his grip. What made you change your mind and reject the God who made you? If you have an issue with all the faith we must have, then there is faith in every religion, and Atheism is a religion in this context.
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Why would Christians need to defend these quotes? The stuff quoted is from the OT so shouldn’t the question be addressed to the Jews? After all according to the Christian faith Jesus dealt with most of this when He died on the cross.
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For all you people out there who think we evolved from monkeys, I got one question for you. When and how did DNA first get it’s first cell membranes? This question was also asked by one of the most famous chemists of the world, Professor James M. Tour. When he first started asking this, many Atheists were shocked because they knew that James revealed an huge gap in the Evolution Theory. Seems like Darwin forgot to add an important detail to his lie. Nice try Darwin, but you’re not going to fool me. Also, your article mainly used quotes from perverted bibles. If you want to make your argument realible, then use qoutes from the KJV only. In Acts 3-26, it correctly states that Jesus is the son of God, while all these other Bible English versions state Jesus as an servant of God. I just gave you proof that the KJV is the only English Bible that is true. You’re welcome.
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We didn’t evolve from monkeys. We evolved from a common ancestor which is why there are both monkeys/apes AND humans today. And NO bible is true. At least not in the supernatural way.
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You cannot comment on this site without believing the bible. To make an attack on the Bible in the way this site does, you must see the whole context and you cannot say “this is not true” when making an attack on Christianity in this way, but you can believe differently. Sorry, but it is true.
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Hello again. The context they teach you in church isn’t the whole context. To understand who wrote the Bible and why and how we know, you might check out Bart Ehrman’s book, Misquoting Jesus.
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Sorry revelationists, The KJV is not the only accurate translation. Even the 1611 translators in their introduction said that as further information or manuscripts come to light, they would help enhance the work they were doing. They admit what even the KJV people do not. listen to debate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwe_nxeVwE0
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Jesus is both a servant and the son of God. Besides, that is not the only place that states he is the Son of God. There are other places in other bibles that say he is. just wanted to clarify.
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you say former christian than obviously you were never born again, sealed with the spirit, for there is no such thing as a former christian. the bible talks about those who went out from us, those who professed to be christians but were not. as i have said to many atheists why start a discussion about things you dont believe? why talk about it at all, like the devil said to eve’; ;did god really say.;…… i got saved reading the bible, specifically the kjv, i wasnt taught it by man so it would be impossible for me to say it wasnt true the bible mentions the great apostasy, i am seeing it more and more each day. as far as inconsistences in the bible ill let god answer that when i see him. i am not that smart/…
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Amen.
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H8 can a church be expected to build a 4 bedroom house in another town?he states it’s our responsibility. Show me in the new treatment chapter and verse or verses.
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“Times when the Bible God is worse than Satan”
In the Tanakh, Satan is just an angel of G-d.
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yes, but he turned from God and now he is at war with
God. His old name was Lucifer, and he was an archangel
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Keep in mind that there’s the old covenant, and the new covenant. The verses from Leviticus are from the old covenant, which, according to Christianity, was replaced when Jesus came.
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It might be easier for Christians to keep that in mind if the Bible were updated and the old covenant removed. Normally when new laws replace old, the old ones are deleted or archived.
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You cannot be a serious writer! I have one word for you and feel free to look it up: CONTEXT. Hopefully you’ll be able to keep this definition in, well, context.
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In what context is it ok to turn children into sexual war booty, for example, or engage n scorched earth warfare and kill all the babies among your enemies, or beat your slaves or make a human sacrifice out of a daughter or . . . . have you actually read the whole Bible?
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God did not do that; we did. It is because we sinned that Pharoahs and kings did that. Besides, there is not one time that God ordered the slaughter of babies
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I’m guessing your church may not have taught the midianite story because in it the Israelite god absolutely does command the slaughter of babies. Among others.
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Have you? (laughing emoji)
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I looked over not even half of your posts, and from a biblical perspective i can tell you half of them are wrong. For example, you had a section for when God is worse than Satan, and you gave scripture to prove it. Satan is only looking for our downfall, and he hates us, while God looked out for at least one person in your examples. He has a right to kill us all in the worst way because he created us and we disobeyed him time and time again. I agree that sometimes people ignore verses and are hypocritical about christianity, and I wish that they would realize what they are doing. I am not trying to simply put down your website, although i don’t agree with it, but you are ignoring all the other scripture that defines the scripture you used. You are not taking it in context. If i come back to this site it is only to see what you say to this comment because i am curious and if you mistake what i am saying for something else i want to set you straight. Also, i put a fake email so the only way to contact me is to respond to this comment. I might not even bother replying to your site, but you are leading people astray. My name is also fake if you couldn’t tell. By the way, the old law is still there to give the Bible credibility. Also, if it wasn’t there we wouldn’t know anything was different before Jesus came.
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Hi, you might want to check out some of the testimonies at ExChristian.net. I did used to believe that too.
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Can you explain your faith, the Atheism you claim to have? if not, why do you believe it?
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Also, explain the Christianity you claim you once had
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The first few chapters of my book, Trusting Doubt, are available here if you’re interested. Chapter 1 is autobiographical and talks about that.
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Your’e avoiding my questions. I am not trying to pressure you, I want to know but I will not support your mission by getting your book.
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Even if it is free
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I said the story was available here. I’m not willing to write it again. You are asking me to do your homework.
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Just received this from ASOR. I believe it applies to your subject and this conversation: http://asorblog.org/2017/11/13/bible-tool-learning-evaluate-competing-voices-age-fake-news/
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And I know people that have seen his miracles. Maybe you will see one in your own life soon.
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Why are you so bitter about the Bible? It is the foundation upon which everyone should live. I’m going to pray for you Valerie.
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Hmm. Let me count the whys.
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God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.
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Re Eleven Kinds of Verses Bible-Believers Like to Ignore. Hi Valerie. There was a point that I could not even touch a Bible because I was so afaid of certain passages. Now I am teaching 2 Bible studies and sometimes deliver the Sunday messages. As I matured and listened to some healthy teaching, now I love this book, and my faith is stronger than ever–along with the peace and joy. I admit, there are some pretty weird passages, but when you study the context, culture, and language, a lot of that is cleared up. The seeming passages about a genocidal God also are clarified. I would be glad to share some of that with you.
Blessings,
Pete
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Thank you very much, but I’m long past having an interest in doing the mental gymnastics required to deconstruct and reconstruct the narrative to extract what Thomas Jefferson called the “diamonds in a dunghill.” I personally believe that the goodness you have found is largely a projection of the goodness in yourself, not wholly inherent in the Iron Age texts, which indeed accurately reflected their age. I’ve found inspiration in other books and other experiences.
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Valerie,
It sounds like you’ve been at this awhile and the last thing you need is someone else trying to push the Bible in your face. That’s not my thing. However, on the other side of the fence, at least respect that what some people have is real. If you’re ever curious watch, “The Case for Christ”. It’s about a journalist that is an atheist deadset on disproving theological theories. It is very good from both perspectives.
Good Luck on your journey,
Dee
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Hi Dee –
I can’t as you put it respect that it is real but I do know how real the experience is, if that’s what you meant, and I am familiar with Lee Strobel’s arguments.
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Extremely well written. You describe my experience exactly. It’s unreadable, and irrelevant in our time.
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Valerie – I don’t think you should lump sum all “Bible-believing Christians” into one equation. I doubt if you would handle any other group of people in this manner.
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Your objections are nonsensical. You complain about God’s Law because you have no sense of holiness whatsoever. You substitute your own judgment for God’s, and then complain that the wicked are put to death for their wickedness.
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God is a very pathetic low life piece of shit for Not giving a good man like me a good wife and family to share my life with. What the hell did i do Wrong anyway?
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Learn the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament, and then we can talk.
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Get the Church to take the Old Testament out of the “Holy Bible” and I’d be happy to center all of my writing on the New.
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TETELESTAI-Paid in Full
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Cyniical, clever and entertaining. But I’d rather be truthful and kind. In fact, the Old Testament’s impossible, detailed, and permissive laws were made for people who didn’t understand God. And today, the same people like to read it. However, the New Testament introduces Jesus, whose laws, teachings and standards are completely perfect. That is the part of the Bible Christians like to read, because they understand it.
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Your blasphemy is astonishing and awful, painful for anyone who knows the Truth — except not surprising because I know it’s out of ignorance. You lack the Holy Spirit, like I used to till I was saved 8 years ago. All of us can begin as the raging skeptic you are — I came with boatloads if similar doubts, mocking and scoffing. But if we earnestly seek, we will find: God will reveal Scripture to you, if you’re seeking Him with all your heart. The Holy Spirit guides us into all Truth, including the Scriptures.
You do not know the Lord, you have no understanding of the magnificence of Christ and the entirety of the Word of God.
I pray you can let down your walls, ask God to work in your heart to free you from the darkness of this world run by Satan, and bring you into the Light of Christ. In His great love for us, He has made the only way out of our common condition without that mercy: sin, death, hell, all justified by our sin which He took, so we could live. If we come to Him, admit our need for this beautiful Savior, we are cleansed and then we follow Him. If we reject His payment for our sin, the sin remains, and the wrath of God which Christ offered to take from us, and suffered for all who WOULD believe, remains instead on us. Please seek the Lord while He is near. He does not wish any to perish, but to repent. We were all sinners, all deceived by the lies and lusts Satan peddles – but we have a choice. All who call upon the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved.
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I don’t understand how you can simply regurgitate the same tired old mantras at a group of people who obviously used to believe them and no longer do.
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Hi, Valerie.
I just wanted to point out how many of the verses you used in this article were from the Old Testament. These three websites may provide a better understanding of why many Christians don’t practice many of the rules that are described in those verses:
https://www.thenivbible.com/blog/should-christians-follow-old-testament-law/
https://jdgreear.com/why-dont-we-follow-all-of-the-old-testament-laws/
https://www.olivetree.com/blog/old_testament_law_still_apply/
Of course, I’m not forcing you to read this, but it may shed some light on why Christians no longer apply the ceremonial and civil laws. The principles behind them, however, hold importance and information on that is included within the Olive Tree Blog website that I listed.
I also wanted to comment on this verse that you used: Anyone who has two shirts should share with the one who has none, and anyone who has food should do the same. Luke 3:11 NIV
Out of love, we should always try to help out those in need, those who aren’t provided for. We should try to help in whatever way we can, and not just leave them to suffer on their own. If you were on the streets, starving, or without clothing, wouldn’t you want someone to help you out? These morals, I believe, don’t demand too much.
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